2026-05-31T14:21:17-0400 / https://www.cbsnews.com/news/face-the-nation-full-transcript-05-31-2026/
在本期《与玛格丽特·布伦南面对全国》节目中，主持人玛格丽特·布伦南邀请的嘉宾包括：
- 乌克兰总统弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基
- 康涅狄格州联邦参议员、民主党人克里斯·墨菲
- 前副总统迈克·彭斯
- 辛迪·麦凯恩，联合国世界粮食计划署执行主任
点击此处浏览2026年《与玛格丽特·布伦南面对全国》的完整节目实录。
玛格丽特·布伦南：我是华盛顿的玛格丽特·布伦南。
本周的《面对全国》节目：美国与伊朗之间的外交斡旋仍在继续，与此同时乌克兰正热切呼吁美国提供更多援助。
我们独家专访了乌克兰总统弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基，他发出了警告：
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弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基（乌克兰总统）：当我们得知俄罗斯正在准备一场大规模的袭击时，情况无疑是这样的。
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玛格丽特·布伦南：乌克兰紧急向美国请求提供反弹道导弹武器，而美国的武器供应本已因伊朗战争而捉襟见肘。
回到美国国内，随着中期选举的较量为11月的投票做准备，政治中品格依然重要吗？我们将与前副总统迈克·彭斯以及康涅狄格州民主党参议员克里斯·墨菲展开对话。两人都有新书出版，并且都对各自政党的未来有着自己的看法。
我们还将听到即将卸任的联合国世界粮食计划署负责人辛迪·麦凯恩讲述在充满挑战的时代养活世界的艰难。
所有内容即将在《面对全国》中呈现。
早上好，欢迎收看《面对全国》。
就在我们等待美伊之间就持续三个月的战争停战框架展开拉锯战的最新进展之际，哥伦比亚广播公司新闻获悉，总统周五对美国的提议进行了进一步修改，调解人目前正在等待伊朗的回应。
我们首先来关注乌克兰方面的担忧：俄罗斯很快将对基辅发动大规模袭击，据消息人士向CBS新闻透露，袭击可能包括针对总统办公室和政府大楼的打击。
周五，我们独家专访了乌克兰总统弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基，他向我们谈到了俄罗斯近期加强的袭击以及美国援助的迫切需求。
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弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基（乌克兰总统）：我们认为俄罗斯方面将发动大规模袭击，使用无人机、巡航导弹和弹道导弹。
我们已经看到了准备工作。我们始终都能察觉他们的准备工作。顺便说一句，我们感谢美国和欧洲伙伴向我们分享情报。所以当我们知道俄罗斯正在准备一场大规模袭击时，我们的伙伴们也知道了，也许不知道太多细节，但我们确实掌握了情况。
俄罗斯方面每天都在袭击平民，当然还有战场目标。大约每两周，他们就会发动一次大规模的弹道导弹等武器袭击。
举个例子，就在几天前的上一次大规模袭击中，他们动用了600架伊朗制造的“沙赫德”无人机，还有大约30多枚弹道导弹，总计90枚导弹和600多架伊朗无人机。要拦截这些武器非常困难。
我们动用了所有现有的、我们生产的武器。当然，我们也使用了反导导弹。这是我们最短缺的装备。
玛格丽特·布伦南：我们从欧洲国家获悉，俄罗斯在欧洲采取的行动风险越来越大。你认为弗拉基米尔·普京为何在这个时刻采取这些行动？
弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基总统：首先，这不是他第一次施加这样的压力。我认为这是政治施压。俄罗斯发出的信息是，不要帮助乌克兰。
我认为这是他最惯用的手段。就是说，如果你们帮助乌克兰，我就会采取这样的行动。
他曾尝试过一次跨界行动。战争一开始，他在罗马尼亚就这么做了，之后不久，他们又向波兰方向派出了21架无人机。通常情况下，即使无人机飞向罗马尼亚、摩尔多瓦或波兰等其他国家，我们也会尽力拦截。
我们会尝试拦截所有目标。如果无法拦截，我们当然会向伙伴们发出警报。我们努力帮助他们，波罗的海国家爱沙尼亚、拉脱维亚也是如此。所以俄罗斯这么做，就是为了在政治上和通过武器压力向北约国家施压，观察它们的反应。
因此，我认为北约国家必须加强团结，作出更强烈的反应。我认为普京正在观察这种反应，以及过去一两年、三年来反应的变化。
他也是在测试其他国家的防空能力，也就是与我们接壤、与白俄罗斯或俄罗斯接壤的北约国家的防空系统。他在测试他们能否摧毁所有的导弹或无人机。这就是我的看法。
玛格丽特·布伦南：你在过去几天里给白宫和国会写了一封私人信件，指出正如你所说，弹道导弹仍然是弗拉基米尔·普京在战场上的主要优势。你需要大量的拦截弹来击落这些导弹。你收到美国方面的回应了吗？
弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基总统：这是我们最优先、也是最重大的挑战。
我们度过了一个非常艰难的冬天。俄罗斯用大量弹道导弹袭击了我们的能源基础设施、供水系统和学校。那真是太艰难了。
现在我们面临着严重的短缺。当然，其中一个原因是中东地区的伊朗战争，我们看到短缺情况正在加剧，我们必须加快速度，加紧发出信息、安排会面，与其他伙伴进行大量磋商。
我们看不到美国的导弹生产能够满足需求。我们认为这可能会在世界范围内引发危机，当然也包括中东地区。我祈求上帝保佑，希望停火能够带来长久的和平。我祝愿中东国家和美国都能实现这一点。
我希望特朗普总统和他的团队以及美国方面能够达成停火协议。但我们看到，我们必须为挑战做好准备。乌克兰经历了长达五年的战争，我们看到俄罗斯正在增加国内弹道导弹的生产。
我们在反导方面存在缺口。这是个大问题。我给白宫和国会写了信，我希望他们能够理解并作出回应。这非常重要。我们需要扩大生产。
玛格丽特·布伦南：国务卿卢比奥最近表示，乌克兰拥有全欧洲最强大的军队。美国陆军部长称乌克兰战场是战争的“硅谷”，赞扬你们整合人工智能和反无人机技术的方式。
那么，你们在这类 warfare 方面拥有优势。你能否利用这种优势来击落这些俄罗斯导弹，还是说你们完全依赖美国的制造业来提供帮助？
弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基总统：嗯，我们曾收到消息，要帮助中东地区保卫美军基地和沙特、阿联酋等中东国家的基础设施。
我们派出了团队。我们派出了200多名专家，负责各类拦截系统、雷达和电子战系统，这是其他国家不具备的能力。国务卿说得没错。所以我们拥有——我们能够摧毁所有类型的无人机。
我们能够击落很多不同类型的导弹，但我们仍然没有足够的反导能力。这是最大的问题。是的，我们正在努力。
顺便说一句，我想说，我们会建成反导系统的，我知道，但我们需要时间。但在这段时间里，我们会损失人员。我们记得，战争从一开始美国就帮助了我们，所以我们非常感激，我们也愿意分享我们所拥有的技术。
但在我们建成欧洲反导系统之前，在那之前，我们需要美国的支持。
玛格丽特·布伦南：国务卿卢比奥表示，俄罗斯和乌克兰之间没有安排任何谈判。他似乎承认谈判完全陷入了停滞。普京的发言人表示，现在谈论战争结束的具体细节还为时过早。你认为俄罗斯最终会坐下来谈判结束战争吗？
弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基总统：是的，当然会。
我们准备好与俄罗斯进行双边会谈。如果普京准备好的话，我准备与他会面。我认为我们需要更多的制裁，更多的压力。你问过他们何时准备好谈判，或者说他们是否会准备好。从理论上讲，我认为更多的制裁和更多的压力会促使他们坐下来对话。即使是现在，他们每月也有3万、3.5万名士兵的伤亡。
玛格丽特·布伦南：哇。
弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基总统：这是一个巨大的伤亡数字。真的，我们已经让这个数字上升了。我的意思是，他们增加了进攻的兵力，所以伤亡数字非常高。
而且，你知道，每个月他们动员的人数与伤亡人数基本相当。所以他们面临着人员短缺的问题。他们正走向人员严重危机的境地。我认为所有这些因素都会推动他们走向对话。
玛格丽特·布伦南：你最后一次与国务卿卢比奥，或者总统的和平特使史蒂夫·威特科夫和贾里德·库什纳联系是什么时候？他们会来基辅吗？
弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基总统：是的，我们指望他们能来基辅。
我希望他们能在两周内找到机会前来。至少我的谈判团队给了我这样的消息。他们告诉我，他们已经与史蒂夫和贾里德取得了联系。他们说，他们准备来乌克兰进行会谈，当然，玛格丽特，你也知道，总是有“当然”的前提。而今天，这个前提就是中东局势。
所以我不知道中东会发生什么，也不知道你们离达成积极的谈判还有多远。再次希望如此。所以我不知道——但我认为我们需要看到美国谈判代表团来到乌克兰。他们从来没有来过这里。
我认为这很重要，对我们来说也是如此。让他们亲眼看看、了解一下这里的情况，看看人们还在正常生活，这很有用。但我们想要结束这场战争。这意味着要阻止俄罗斯。他们已经去过莫斯科好几次了。我之前说过，如果他们这次想走这条路线，就必须先来基辅，然后再去莫斯科，我认为这会有帮助。
玛格丽特·布伦南：在结束采访前，我想回到你提到的无人机技术和你向美国提出的提议。谈判是在推进还是陷入了停滞？
弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基总统：所以，我们非常希望能与美国达成第一份无人机协议，就像与第一个战略伙伴一样。
但美国希望对我们所有类型的无人机进行检查。我们签署了——我接受了这份文件，同意按照他们要求的方式进行训练、检查，并在天空和水域使用，因为我们不仅有空中无人机，还有海上无人机等等。
所以我接受了这个流程。但我们还没有签署大型的无人机合作协议。我希望我们正在朝这个方向前进。但我们已经与一些中东国家和欧洲国家达成了无人机协议。
我们现在正在与欧盟准备一份大型无人机协议。我希望我们能与美国合作伙伴达成类似的协议。我对此抱有期待。
玛格丽特·布伦南：你抱有期待。听起来你需要特朗普总统点头同意。
弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基总统：是的，我们需要特朗普总统点头同意。
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玛格丽特·布伦南：我们对泽连斯基总统的完整采访可以在我们的网站、YouTube频道和播客上观看。
《面对全国》将在一分钟后回来，请继续收看。
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玛格丽特·布伦南：欢迎回到《面对全国》。我们现在连线康涅狄格州民主党参议员克里斯·墨菲。他是新书《公共利益的危机：在破碎的美国为意义和联系而战》的作者。我们在康涅狄格州哈特福德与他进行连线。
早上好，参议员。
克里斯·墨菲参议员（康涅狄格州民主党人）：早上好。
玛格丽特·布伦南：我们稍后再谈你的书。
但我们先继续刚才与泽连斯基总统的对话。你认为两党有没有足够的支持力度，推动五角大学重新调拨一些“爱国者”导弹，让他能够击落所有 incoming 的俄罗斯导弹？
克里斯·墨菲：是的，不幸的是，我对此表示怀疑。
我认为从一开始情况就很简单。唐纳德·特朗普不想为支持乌克兰做必要的事情，而共和党总是会追随他的领导。我们有一项两党支持的制裁法案已经在参议院搁置了一年半，这项法案将加强对俄罗斯经济的制裁，让他们更难为战争提供资金。
唐纳德·特朗普基本上对这项法案拥有否决权。他不允许参议院共和党人提出这项法案。他还扣押了国会 allocated 给乌克兰的4亿美元资金，尽管参议院共和党人在公开和私下都强烈抗议，但他一分钱都没花。
所以我只是认为，归根结底，唐纳德·特朗普已经决定不帮助乌克兰，而共和党团里似乎没有足够的勇气站出来反对他。我的意思是，我希望我错了。这显然是一个关键时刻，乌克兰看起来实际上即将能够发动真正的攻势。所以我希望他们最终能在这个问题上与总统抗衡。
玛格丽特·布伦南：但是，关于你提到的4亿美元资金，战争部长赫格塞特说这笔资金应该被释放，但我们没有看到任何动静。
我知道你在拨款委员会任职，所以你有机会在周三国务卿卢比奥出席听证会、要求336亿美元预算时提出这些问题。你在提问时的首要议题是什么？
克里斯·墨菲：嗯，首要议题是结束伊朗战争。这对美国来说绝对是一场灾难。
显然，最主要的影响是在国内，家庭和企业正因油价上涨而濒临破产，有些地方的油价已经达到每加仑6美元。但这对美国来说也是一种耻辱。它让伊朗变得更加强大。
当然，对俄罗斯也有影响。我们不得不暂停对俄罗斯石油的制裁，以便让他们的石油进入市场。所以伊朗战争的后果不仅是美国人在丧生、油价上涨，俄罗斯也变得更加强大。我们实际上是在资助他们的战争努力。
所以我们需要结束伊朗战争。几个月来一直在谈论达成协议。我认为协议的条款本身就相当丢脸，但在这个节点上，无论条款如何，我们都需要结束这场战争。
玛格丽特·布伦南：关于制裁的问题，我们和泽连斯基总统谈过，完整的 transcript 可以在网上看到。
但我知道白宫反驳说，这笔钱对俄罗斯的收入来说并不重要。你显然不同意这种说法。
克里斯·墨菲：是的，我的意思是，从道德角度来看，无论这笔钱是否能起到决定性作用，我们帮助俄罗斯资助这场战争的想法都是荒谬的。这可不是小数目。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
克里斯·墨菲：由于我们解除制裁，俄罗斯获得了数十亿美元的额外资金。这让他们能够购买一些即将倾泻到基辅的导弹。
人们因为我们对俄罗斯的帮助而丧生。所以，仅仅是霍尔木兹海峡被封锁，就已经在损害我们的经济，这已经够糟糕的了。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
克里斯·墨菲：事实上，我们通过伊朗战争帮助俄罗斯，更是在伤口上撒盐，这是不可接受的。
玛格丽特·布伦南：你写了我们提到的这本书，我知道你在最近的一次采访中说，2028年的民主党候选人都在给你发短信，和你讨论书中的一些观点。
我们最近的CBS民调发现，62%的登记选民对民主党持负面看法。那么你如何落实这些理念，民主党需要重点强调哪些主要观点来重塑政党形象？
克里斯·墨菲：是的，这本书实际上是关于导致唐纳德·特朗普上台的国家精神危机。这个国家的人们感到更加孤独、更加迷茫、更加疲惫，因为经济剥削工人，文化告诉人们只要购买东西就能获得幸福，而不是让他们成为积极的公民。
所以这本书是关于我们必须开展的基础性工作：整顿经济，让人们感受到目标和价值；整顿民主，让人们感受到力量。这就是这本书的核心，关于这个国家的精神状态。
我认为民主党需要做的是，让民众明白，他们对政治被绑架感到愤怒，人们觉得自己的生活失控，因为他们认为我们所有人都腐败。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
克里斯·墨菲：他们不仅认为唐纳德·特朗普腐败，他们认为所有政客都腐败。
所以，民主党需要更响亮地宣传我们将如何清除政界的亿万富翁和企业资金，因为如果我们不同时告诉他们我们将如何改革民主，那么当我们说要修复经济时，人们是不会相信的……
玛格丽特·布伦南：好的。
克里斯·墨菲：……的。
玛格丽特·布伦南：好的。
那么，关于精神和品格的问题，格雷厄姆·普拉特纳的竞选团队周六向CBS证实，这位缅因州参议院候选人曾向妻子以外的女性发送过露骨的色情短信。这只是他过往争议中的又一例。他能通过品格考验吗？
克里斯·墨菲：是的，我的意思是，我没有像其他人那样密切关注这个故事。
但格雷厄姆·普拉特纳是为国家服务过的人。他为社区服务过。他也犯过错误。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
克里斯·墨菲：而且他已经承认了。
品格还包括站出来反对那些让这个国家破产、腐败的人。而这场竞选将是一场对比：一边是为国家献身的人，另一边是从白宫开始系统性地侵蚀国家道德根基的人。
所以，他确实承认自己犯了错误，但我认为缅因州的这场竞选将是一个非常清晰的对比：一边是一生都在保护我们的人，另一边似乎是在保护唐纳德·特朗普的腐败。
玛格丽特·布伦南：嗯，我还想问你，就在本节目播出前，我的同事丽塔·布拉弗在《CBS周日早晨》节目中播出了一次采访。
她采访了前第一夫人吉尔·拜登，谈到了她的新书，书中提到了臭名昭著的2024年总统辩论，当时的总统实在无法回答问题。她透露了很多事情，包括她当时认为丈夫中风了，因为他说话语无伦次。
她承认事后她对丈夫说他搞砸了，但现在她才把这件事说出来。民主党人，包括在本节目中，多次强烈表示他的认知能力没问题。你如何让公众相信民主党现在说的是实话？
克里斯·墨菲：是的，听着，我认为民主党确实必须诚实地承认我们在2024年犯下的错误。
显然，回想起来，乔·拜登本应该退出竞选。我们本应该进行一场开放的初选。而且，坦率地说，在这本书里，我谈到了我们的政治变得多么部落化，共和党人愿意原谅唐纳德·特朗普的腐败，因为他们的整个身份认同都建立在他们的政党之上。
我认为这种情况在民主党这边也会发生，我们也经常愿意对本党领导人的错误视而不见。而这本书认为，解决这个问题不仅仅靠政治，我们实际上需要为人们在政治之外建立更健康的身份认同结构……
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
克里斯·墨菲：……让他们通过工作或与当地社区的联系来找到自己的目标。
这会让我们的政治不那么部落化……
玛格丽特·布伦南：好的。
克里斯·墨菲：……也许能让双方在认为政党出错时都能站出来反对。
玛格丽特·布伦南：好的，墨菲参议员，我们必须结束今天的采访了。感谢你今天的真知灼见。
我们很快会带来更多《面对全国》的内容。
（广告时段）
玛格丽特·布伦南：欢迎回到《FACE THE NATION》。
我们现在连线前副总统迈克·彭斯，他的新书是《保守派的信仰：重新发现保守派的良知》。
早上好，副总统先生。
迈克·彭斯（前美国副总统）：早上好，玛格丽特。很高兴见到你。
玛格丽特·布伦南：你显然认为你的政党需要一些提醒。你在书中写道，美国人对保守主义的含义感到困惑。你说：“对许多右翼民粹主义者来说，怨恨决定了政策。”
你这里指的是谁或什么？
迈克·彭斯：嗯，我认为——听着，在我的整个成年生活中，共和党一直以致力于保守主义议程而定义：以美国作为自由世界的领袖，有限政府，自由市场经济，以及传统道德价值观，特别是生命权。
我很自豪地说，从里根政府到第一届特朗普政府，我们都是按照这个议程执政的。但我写《保守派的信仰》是因为在过去四五年里，出现了我称之为民粹主义右翼的势力，他们更关注我们反对什么，而不是我们支持什么，更关注怨恨，而不是积极的保守主义议程。
保守派运动一直在与进步左翼进行政治斗争。但现在，民粹主义右翼带来了新的威胁：他们在国外奉行孤立主义政策，在国内支持大政府和保护主义，边缘化生命权。随着今年秋季的选举和2028年大选的临近，我认为我们作为一个政党和运动，应该花点时间提醒自己我们的信仰是什么。
玛格丽特·布伦南：你描述的一些情况不仅仅存在于党内边缘群体。
迈克·彭斯：不。没错。
玛格丽特·布伦南：美国总统，也就是这个政党的领袖，正是这种思潮的代表。
迈克·彭斯：没错。
玛格丽特·布伦南：而且你写道，他并不总是按照保守主义原则执政。
我知道总统的整体支持率很低。确实如此。但他现在似乎牢牢掌控着共和党。那么，你如何重振他所反对的那部分阵营呢？我的意思是，正如你刚才详细说明的，生命权就是其中之一。
你和他在这个问题上公开决裂了。你认为他背叛了这个原则。你认为他在——
迈克·彭斯：没错。
玛格丽特·布伦南：比如，在开支问题和他处理一些自由市场问题的方式上。
迈克·彭斯：没错。嗯，听着，我认为第二届特朗普政府有很多正确的地方。他们在美国历史上最严重的边境危机之后 securing 了边境。他们全面延长了我们通过的特朗普-彭斯减税政策。他们毫无歉意地支持我们珍视的盟友以色列，并直接向伊朗开战。
但在其他方面，你已经看到总统和他身边的人受到民粹主义右翼政治的影响。对信用卡和药品实施价格管制，将美国企业国有化，当然还有对盟友和对手都征收广泛的关税。除此之外，还有边缘化生命权的行为。对乔·拜登及其政府通过邮件广泛分发堕胎药的行为无所作为。还有对乌克兰援助的时断时续。虽然他们对以色列和伊朗的立场很强硬，但对乌克兰援助的时断时续更多反映了进步左翼的政治和绥靖政策，而不是我们政党在国内外定义的久经考验的保守主义议程。
玛格丽特·布伦南：那么为什么共和党不站出来反对他呢？
迈克·彭斯：嗯，我——听着，我要给总统所有应得的赞誉。他——
玛格丽特·布伦南：你在众议院和参议院都拥有多数席位。但他们大多保持沉默。
迈克·彭斯：他在共和党初选选民中赢得了极高的忠诚度。
玛格丽特·布伦南：初选选民。
迈克·彭斯：我们在德克萨斯州、路易斯安那州、印第安纳州最近的州参议院初选中都看到了这一点。
而且我认为这是因为，听着，进步左翼基本上已经掌控美国大约100年了。罗纳德·里根开始了反击。我认为共和党选民真正欣赏特朗普总统对抗激进左翼的方式，并且他一直在这么做，但我想让我们的选民知道，民粹主义右翼带来了新的推动。随着我们关注中期选举和2028年大选——
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
迈克·彭斯：我认为重要的是我们要关注我们支持什么，因为玛格丽特，我相信这不仅对共和党来说是一个获胜的议程，而且它为美国人民带来了自由和繁荣。
玛格丽特·布伦南：嗯，当你说到初选选民时，你知道那不一定是所有共和党选民。当然，你只要看看德克萨斯州选举的投票率就能明白这一点。
但难道不是从总统到基层的共和党，通过这次重划选区的努力，锁定了变革，只会进一步助长党内更极端的势力吗？
迈克·彭斯：嗯，我——但是，听着，这是——你知道——
玛格丽特·布伦南：民粹主义的观点（ph）。
迈克·彭斯：当民主党人住在玻璃房子里却指责别人重划选区时，这实在是太容易了。你知道，美国有一些州——
玛格丽特·布伦南：当然，但重划选区难道不会削弱两党合作的动力吗？
迈克·彭斯：没错。不过，美国有些州，40%的选民是共和党人，但国会里却没有共和党议员来自这些州。
玛格丽特·布伦南：所以，你支持重划选区？
迈克·彭斯：我从来都不支持党派性的重划选区。
但听着，我对美国人民和共和党选民充满信心。我认为，如果我们高举美国在世界舞台上的领导地位、有限政府、自由市场经济、传统价值观和生命权的旗帜，我认为选民们会在这次中期选举和2028年大选中支持我们的事业，届时我们将决定是进步左翼及其对社会主义的拥抱引领国家舞台，还是民粹主义右翼——一种形式的进步政治。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
迈克·彭斯：我的意思是，这是——当你看到他们对孤立主义、保护主义（ph）、企业民族主义和边缘化价值观的拥抱时——
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
迈克·彭斯：这——它——越来越像是左翼政策的回声。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
迈克·彭斯：我想正如里根总统多年前所说，共和党应该提供选择，而不是回声。
玛格丽特·布伦南：但副总统J.D.万斯，不就是这些观点的回声吗？如果特朗普总统不是保守派，那J.D.万斯是吗？
迈克·彭斯：嗯，听着，我已经数不清特朗普总统纠正过我多少次，当我说某个立场是保守主义的时候。事实上，他自己也说过，他不是保守派。他从来没有真正声称自己是。
我不太清楚副总统的观点和他的政府哲学。但正如我在书中所写的，共和党内部存在着新的紧张关系，这种紧张关系会将特朗普总统所支持的民粹主义右翼议程的那些部分——
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
迈克·彭斯：——并试图将其作为共和党新的发展方向。我认为这对共和党来说是有害的。我认为这对国家来说更糟，因为国家需要一个充满活力、强大的保守派政党，致力于自由、自由市场和传统价值观。
玛格丽特·布伦南：说到中期选举，你在书中也花了很多篇幅谈论品格。你说品格很重要。
上周，德克萨斯州共和党人投票决定，你也知道，肯·帕克斯顿成为他们的候选人。他是现任州检察长。他曾被共和党控制的众议院弹劾。多项滥用职权的指控，包括贿赂。他的妻子，该州现任参议员，指责他通奸，并以“圣经理由”提出离婚。他在2015年因证券欺诈指控被起诉，尽管这些指控后来被撤销了。而总统选择了他，而不是你描述中更保守的约翰·科宁。
肯·帕克斯顿的品格能代表你的政党吗？
迈克·彭斯：嗯，我认为，正如我在书中所写的，品格、正直、坚守原则，对我们的运动和国家的生活都极其重要。
但是，你知道，当我看德克萨斯州的初选，看路易斯安那州、肯塔基州、印第安纳州的许多州参议院竞选时，我认为这更多反映了特朗普总统对共和党初选选民的掌控，这些选民感激他对抗激进左翼的方式。
看看今天的民主党。我的意思是，令人惊讶的是，如果共和党在拥抱民粹主义右翼的过程中部分迷失了方向，民主党已经完全投入到支持社会主义候选人和社会主义政策中去了。我认为共和党选民——
玛格丽特·布伦南：所以，你会和肯·帕克斯顿划清界限吗？他不代表保守派价值观？
迈克·彭斯：共和党选民想要推动这一点。他们尊重总统的观点。我只是想让人们明白，在我们梳理今年所有这些选举的过程中，共和党内部出现了一股新的力量。我认为我们必须回到那些一直让我们的国家和政党强大繁荣的核心价值观和原则上来。
玛格丽特·布伦南：嗯，路易斯安那州的参议员比尔·卡西迪，他冒犯特朗普的原因似乎是在1月6日国会大厦遇袭后的第二次弹劾审判中投票判定特朗普有罪。总统甚至根据1月6日的怨恨来初选候选人，这让你不安吗？
迈克·彭斯：嗯，我不太清楚总统在路易斯安那州发表此番言论的确切原因。
玛格丽特·布伦南：他的推文说得非常明确。
迈克·彭斯：我——所以，你知道，我们有——我们有一段时间没聊天了。所以
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
迈克·彭斯：但我——是的。我——老实说，我永远不会低估1月6日发生的事情。我永远相信，凭借上帝的恩典，我们那天尽到了自己的职责，确保根据宪法和平移交权力。
这也是我为什么——玛格丽特，关于所谓的“武器化基金”的讨论。
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错。
迈克·彭斯：设立一个基金来补偿袭击警察和破坏国会大厦的人的想法，这完全不可接受。我希望政府能放弃这个想法，彻底放弃这个想法——
玛格丽特·布伦南：你认为参议院共和党人会让他们放弃这个想法吗，因为很多共和党人发现很难对抗总统，正如你刚才所说，因为初选和中期选举？
迈克·彭斯：嗯，确实如此，但——确实如此，但我对许多共和党人和参议员站出来反对它感到鼓舞。听着，1月6日袭击警察和破坏国会大厦的人，不应该从这个基金或其他任何地方获得一分钱的纳税人资金。
玛格丽特·布伦南：但是，我的意思是，仅仅是设立这个基金的先例，他们是否应该排除1月6日的袭击者，所谓的“武器化基金”本身就是一个值得审视的问题。
但我想明确地问你另一件在这里发生的事情。
迈克·彭斯：嗯，在华盛顿，我们不需要用 slush 基金来解决案件。
玛格丽特·布伦南：你认为这是一个 slush 基金。
迈克·彭斯：有一个支持生命的家庭确实被拜登司法部碾压了，他们只得到了七位数的和解金。司法部可以解决这些权利受到侵犯的案件，也应该这么做。我非常欢迎这项和解。
玛格丽特·布伦南：上周，应司法部的要求，联邦上诉法院推翻了四名极右翼极端组织“誓言守护者”成员的定罪。该组织是参与1月6日事件的民兵组织。
你认为特朗普政府是在故意粉饰那一天吗？
迈克·彭斯：嗯，我当然看到了这方面的证据。特别是——在1月6日周年纪念日那天，白宫发布了一份时间线，字面意思是将当天的骚乱归咎于国会警察，这让我感到冒犯。
听着，我非常相信——未来历史会对我们的角色作出评判，对所有在国会警察保护国会大厦后返回的共和党人和民主党人作出评判，我们都根据宪法尽到了自己的职责。但显然有人试图改写这段历史。但我不认为这会得逞。
玛格丽特·布伦南：好的，副总统先生，感谢您分享您的思考。也很高兴您能亲自来到这里。
迈克·彭斯：谢谢你，玛格丽特。感谢你。
玛格丽特·布伦南：我们很快回来。
（广告时段）
玛格丽特·布伦南：世界粮食计划署执行主任辛迪·麦凯恩将于周一卸任。在她领导联合国机构的三年里，已经发生了两次饥荒。我们上周五在罗马与她交谈时，她告诉我们，目前可能还会有更多的饥荒，还有许多其他挑战。
（采访片段开始）
玛格丽特·布伦南：刚果正在应对埃博拉疫情的紧急响应。我了解到，这个国家已经有约2700万人面临粮食不安全问题。
我知道美国国务院承诺提供一些帮助，但你了解到现场的紧急救援人员的情况如何吗？
辛迪·麦凯恩（世界粮食计划署执行主任）：情况不太好。这——正在大规模地影响人们。现在真的无法确定有多少人受到了影响。我们知道疫情正在肆虐。
所以，我们不仅需要能够进入灾区，我们负责物流，我们运送物资，我们派遣人员。而且——我们在该地区做的远不止这些。但这需要真正的全球努力。这非常致命。
玛格丽特·布伦南：你说埃博拉疫情正在肆虐。
辛迪·麦凯恩：是的。
玛格丽特·布伦南：你的工作人员还能留在现场吗？
辛迪·麦凯恩：我们的工作人员还在现场，但我的——我的一个重要项目，也是——很大程度上我们今天计划的原因，就是照顾我们自己的人员。责任关怀。而这现在变得至关重要，因为目前没有足够的设施来处理这种情况。所以我们正在——你知道，显然正在组建一个特别工作组和团队来做到这一点，以确保我们自己以及当然还有世界粮食计划署的人员得到保护。
玛格丽特·布伦南：嗯，你在这个职位上经历了太多的热点地区和冲突。当然，中东仍然是一个重大挑战。我知道你在伊朗境内仍有一些行动。正如你所知，那里没有自由媒体能够记录正在发生的事情。你能告诉我们那里的平民情况如何吗？
辛迪·麦凯恩：情况不太好。嗯，让我们面对现实吧，当霍尔木兹海峡被封锁，双方都在发动袭击，一路上下游都有轰炸，人们不仅会陷入粮食不安全，还会挨饿。现在是结束这场冲突、确保霍尔木兹海峡开放的时候了，因为这影响到了所有人。而且当海峡重新开放时，我们需要几个月的时间才能恢复正轨。
玛格丽特·布伦南：需要几个月才能恢复正轨。为什么？是因为运粮船被困，还是因为食品价格上涨？为什么？
辛迪·麦凯恩：价格、供应、运输。举个很好的例子，我们——在阿富汗开展工作。通常情况下，我们从采购地运送粮食只需要三周时间，现在几乎需要三个月。
玛格丽特·布伦南：哇。
辛迪·麦凯恩：所以——所以，与此同时，妇女和儿童——总是最先受到影响的群体——正在挨饿。所以所有这些地区都是如此。当你谈到化肥、种子，当然还有其他有助于缓解饥饿的物资时，这确实是一个严重的问题。
玛格丽特·布伦南：从更宏观的角度来看。当你看到过去几年中东地区的破坏时，你会如何向国内的美国人解释其长期影响？
辛迪·麦凯恩：嗯，长期影响，坦率地说，并不乐观。你知道，当加沙的停火得以维持，我们能够大规模运送物资时，我们避免了加沙的饥荒。但现在我们又回到了原点。我们无法大规模运送物资。人们——你知道，正如你所知，那里有轰炸，有各种事情，我们正在面临——不仅仅是严峻的局势，我们还面临着可能影响一代儿童的危机。
所以，在任何出现问题的国家，黎巴嫩、加沙、叙利亚、苏丹，所有我去过的国家，还有乌克兰，——能够大规模进入并提供援助是最重要的，还要确保——确保我们的人道主义工作者不会成为目标，并且我们尊重人道主义法律。而现在这一点根本没有实现。现在做一名援助人员非常危险。
玛格丽特·布伦南：你说的“失去一代儿童”是什么意思？
辛迪·麦凯恩：嗯，当你——当你谈到那些没有——要么没有得到足够的食物，要么得到的食物营养不足的孩子，再加上学校没有开学，没有——你知道，没有适当的住房、干净的水等等，药品等等，这对孩子来说无疑是一场灾难。所以我是——显然，我首先是一位母亲，也是六个孩子的祖母。所以我从母亲的角度来看待这个问题。我——你知道，作为父母，你会不惜一切代价养活自己的孩子。而现在在这么多地区，这种情况没有发生，这真的令人担忧和绝望。
玛格丽特·布伦南：我听过你说“现在养活他们，以后才能对抗他们”。你将其与国家安全和激进主义直接联系起来。
辛迪·麦凯恩：是的。不，你完全正确。我们相信这一点，因为当饥饿的人们无法获得足够的营养或食物时，他们会转向坏人，因为坏人会提供食物。
玛格丽特·布伦南：你最近被问及保守派运动。你说在保守派运动中，“援助”已经变成了一个肮脏的词。而作为一名人道主义者，也变得毫无用处。
你一生都是保守派。当你看到事情朝着这个方向发展时，肯定很难接受。你为什么认为会发生这种情况，你认为这是暂时的吗？
辛迪·麦凯恩：我会这么说。显然，那番话在很大程度上是出于沮丧。
我相信美国有很多、很多、很多好人，他们非常愿意帮助这项事业，或者帮助任何他们认为合适的事情。但我们需要更多这样的人。而且我们需要——我们需要从不仅仅是美国，还有全球其他国家采取行动，也站出来帮助我们。我们无法独自完成这项任务。而且我们希望，正如你所知，美国是我们最大的捐助国，我们对此感到非常自豪，但我们需要所有人都参与进来。
玛格丽特·布伦南：不过，美国已经改变了对援助的政策。特朗普政府使用“贸易而非援助”的说法，辩称他们将通过对外援助的形式提供更高效、更有效的支持。
当你看你开展工作的地方，你认为USAID的解体产生了影响吗？
辛迪·麦凯恩：我认为是的。我真的——我认为是的。AID是所有这些工作中不可或缺的一部分。当然，我们在一定程度上也依赖他们。
我希望我们仍然有AID，但这是本届政府的选择。所以我们必须适应这种情况。
不过，我希望最终我们能够恢复一些我们曾经能够做到的软实力方面的工作。正如你所知，这至少是美国援助的一个非常重要的部分。但再说一次，我不是在批评政府里的任何人，我只是说我们需要帮助。
（采访片段结束）
玛格丽特·布伦南：我们对麦凯恩大使的完整采访可以在我们的YouTube频道、网站和《FACE THE NATION》的播客平台上观看。
（广告时段）
玛格丽特·布伦南：肯尼迪中心很快将再次恢复原名。周五，一名联邦法官下令特朗普总统的名字在两周内移除，理由是“国会赋予了肯尼迪中心其名称，只有国会才能更改它”。法官还裁定，由特朗普总统亲自任命的受托人领导的肯尼迪中心董事会，不得推进其在7月关闭该设施进行多年翻新的计划。
特朗普总统在社交媒体帖子中表达了对这一决定的不满，并表示他已经“取消了与这个破败且不安全的肯尼迪中心的合作”。
这只是总统重新构想华盛顿一些历史地标努力的最新挫折。他对林肯纪念堂反射池的翻新以及拆除白宫东翼建造舞厅的计划也面临法律挑战。
我们很快回来。
Full transcript of “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan,” May 31, 2026
2026-05-31T14:21:17-0400 / https://www.cbsnews.com/news/face-the-nation-full-transcript-05-31-2026/
On this “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:
- Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy
- Sen. Chris Murphy, Democrat of Connecticut
- Former Vice PresidentMike Pence
- Cindy McCain, U.N. World Food Programme executive director
Click here to browse full transcripts from 2026 of “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan.”
*
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m Margaret Brennan in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: The diplomatic dance between the U.S. and Iran continues, as Ukraine makes an impassioned plea for more help from the U.S.
We spoke exclusively with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, who issued a warning:
(Begin VT)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY (Ukrainian President): When we know that Russia prepares a big, massive attack, definitely.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And urgently requested anti-ballistic missile weaponry from the U.S., whose supply is already stretched thin by that war with Iran.
Back home, as midterm matchups prepare for their November contests, does character count anymore when it comes to politics? We will talk with former Vice President Mike Pence, as well as Connecticut Democratic Senator Chris Murphy. They both have new books out, and they both have thoughts on the future of their respective political parties.
We will also hear from the outgoing head of the U.N.’s World Food Program, Cindy McCain, on the difficulty of feeding the world in challenging times.
It’s all just ahead on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.
As we await developments in the back-and-forth between the U.S. and Iran over a framework for a truce in the now-three-month-long war, CBS News has learned that the president made further edits to the U.S. proposal on Friday, and mediators now wait on Iran’s response.
We begin today with Ukrainian fears that Russia will soon stage a massive attack on Kyiv, which sources tell CBS News could include strikes on the presidential office and government buildings.
When we spoke exclusively to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy on Friday, he told us about the increased attacks from the Russians in recent weeks and the dire need for assistance from the U.S.
(Begin VT)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY (Ukrainian President): We think that we will have a big attack from Russian side using drones, using cruise missiles and ballistic.
And we see the preparation. Always, we see the preparation. By the way, we are thankful to United States and European partners when they share with us intelligence. So, when we know that Russia prepares a big, massive attack, definitely, our partners also know, maybe not a lot of details, but we know.
We have each day attack from the Russian side on civilians, and, of course, on battlefield. And two times a week or two times per 10 days, they have big, massive attacks with ballistic and et cetera.
Last massive attack, just to understand, it was some days ago. It was 600 drones, Iranian drones, Shaheds. And they had about 35 – about 30-plus ballistic missiles. And, in total, it was 90 missiles and more than 600 Iranian drones. So it was very difficult to destroy it.
We use all our weapons, what we have, what we produce. And, of course, we use anti-ballistic missiles. This is the biggest deficit for us.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’re hearing from European countries that Russia is taking more and more operational risks in Europe. Why do you think Vladimir Putin is taking these risks at this moment?
PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY: First of all, it’s not the first time he has – he is doing such pressure. I think it’s political pressure. It’s messages from Russia, don’t help Ukraine.
I think this is the most – the most usual meaning, what he used. Don’t – if you will help Ukraine, I will do these such steps.
So, he begin – he tried once crossing. At the very beginning of this war, he did it in Romania, and then a little bit later, it was in Poland, when they used 21 drones. Usually, we try to catch all the drones even when they go – when their – direction to other countries like Romania, Moldova or the direction of Poland.
We try to catch everything. If we can’t, of course, we give these messages to our partners. We try to help them, and also the same with the Baltic countries, Estonia, Latvia. So, Russia uses this just to attack politically and by weapon pressure on NATO countries to look and their reaction.
So, the reaction, we – I think the reaction has to be more strong from the unity of NATO countries. And I think that Putin is comparing how this reaction and how it’s changed during this one year or two year, three year.
This is the way how – and he also – the testing of air defense of other countries, NATO countries which are bordering us or bordering Belarus or Russia. So, he’s testing what air defense they have. Can they destroy all the – all the missiles or drones? This is what I think.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You sent a personal letter to the White House and to Congress within the past few days explaining that ballistic missiles, as you put it, remain Vladimir Putin’s last major battlefield advantage.
You need a surge of interceptors to take these missiles out. Have you gotten a response from America?
PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY: This is the biggest – this is the priority for us, and big, big challenge.
We had very difficult, tough winter. Russia attacked us by lots of ballistic missiles on our energy infrastructure, water supply, schools. It was – it was very difficult.
Now we see big deficit. Of course, one of the reasons it’s the situation in the Middle East with the Iranian war, and we see that the deficit is increasing, and we need to hurry up, to rush and to send messages and meetings and do a lot of meetings with other partners.
We don’t see enough missiles in production of the United States. We see that this is – it can be crisis in the world, including Middle East, of course. I hope, God bless, that the cease-fire will be long and lasting peace. I wish it to Middle East countries and to the United States.
And I hope that President Trump and his team and American side will negotiate cease-fire. But what we see, we have to prepare for the challenges. And we, in Ukraine, we don’t have cease-fire, we have long five-years war, and we see that Russia is increasing their internal production, the production of ballistic missiles.
And we have deficit with anti-ballistic. This is big problem. I sent a letter to the White House and Congress of the United States, and I hope that they will understand and will answer, respond. And this is very important. We need to increase the production.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Secretary of State Rubio recently said that Ukraine has the strongest military in all of Europe. The Army secretary of the United States called the Ukrainian battlefield the Silicon Valley of war, praising how you’ve integrated A.I. and anti-drone technology.
So, you have this edge on this type of warfare. Can you use it in any way to take down these Russian missiles, or are you solely dependent on American manufacturing to help?
PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY: Well, we’ve got messages to help in the Middle East to defend some bases with American soldiers and also infrastructure of Middle East countries like Saudi or Emirates, et cetera.
And I came with – with our groups. We sent two – more than 200 our experts, such a level of sort and different kind of interceptors, radars, systems of electronic warfare, and nobody has. And secretary is right. So we have – and we can destroy all kinds of drones.
We can destroy a lot of different missiles, but we don’t have – still, in our total program and system, we don’t have anti-ballistic. This is the biggest problem. Yes, we are on the way.
By the way, I wanted to say, we will build it, I know, but we need time for this. But during this time, we lose people. And we remember that United States helped us from the very beginning of this war, so, of course, we are very thankful, and we are ready to share what we have.
But until the moment we will produce our European anti-ballistic system, until this moment, we need support from the United States.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Secretary Rubio said there are no negotiations scheduled between Russia and Ukraine. He seems to be acknowledging this is completely stalled.
President Putin’s spokesperson said it is too early to speak in specifics about the end of the war. Do you think Russia can ever come to negotiate an end?
PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY: Yes, of course.
We are ready to speak bilaterally with Russia. I’m ready to meet with Putin if he will be ready. I think we need more sanctions. I think we need more pressure. And you asked when they will be ready and if, if they will be ready. Theoretically, I think, yes, more sanctions, more pressure, they will be ready for the dialogue. Even now, they have losses, 30,000, 35,000 soldiers, Russian soldiers, per month.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Wow.
PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY: And it’s a huge number of losses. Really, we increased this number. We – I mean, they increased the number to attack us, and that’s why the number of losses is very big.
And, each month, you have to know that they mobilize I think the same very comparable number with losses. So this is a problem for them, the deficit of people. And they are on the way to the big crisis with the people. I think all these things will push them to the dialogue.
MARGARET BRENNAN: When is the last time you heard from Secretary Rubio, or Steve Witkoff or Jared Kushner, the president’s peace envoys? And will they ever come to Kyiv?
PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY: Yes, we count on their coming to Kyiv.
I hope that they will find a possibility to come here in two weeks. But at least I have got such message from my negotiation group. They told me that they had contacts with Steve and Jared. And they said that they are ready to come to Ukraine and to speak, if, of course, if, always if, you know, Margaret. And, today, if, it mean Middle East.
So I don’t know what will be in the Middle East and how you close to negotiations, positive one. Again, hope so. So, I don’t know if – but that – I think that we need to see American negotiation group in Ukraine. They’ve never been here.
I think it’s important not all – also for us. It’s useful for them to understand, to see, to see people, that their life is going on. But we want to stop this war. It means to stop Russia. They’ve been several times in Moscow. I said previously about it, if they want to go this time to Moscow, they have to come to Kyiv and then go to Moscow, I think it will be helpful.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Before I let you go, I just want to come back to what you mentioned in regard to drone technology and this offer that you made to the United States. Is the deal progressing or is it stalled?
PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY: So, we wanted very much to do the first drone deal with the United States, like with the first strategic partner.
But the United States wanted to check all our types of drones. We signed – we accepted, I accepted this document, this way how they wanted us to train, to check, to use it in the sky, on the water, because we have not only sky drones. We have sea drones, and et cetera.
So I accepted this way. But we still didn’t accept a drone deal, like the big document. I hope that we are on the way. But we have already drone deals with some Middle East countries, and we have already drone deals with some European countries.
Now we’re preparing the big drone deal with E.U. And I hope that we will have such decisions with American partners. I count on it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You count on it. And you need to keep working with Silicon Valley and American technology companies on this?
PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY: We want very much, yes, because American technological companies, they have a lot of different interesting A.I. technologies, what we don’t have.
And we have a lot of things what they don’t have because our experience on the battlefield. I think this cooperation can be the – can be huge and the most powerful in the world. So we need – you know, we need to negotiate already, not to speak about it, just to make steps, and to do it as quick as possible.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You need President Trump to say yes, it sounds like.
PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY: Yes, we need President Trump to say yes.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Our full interview with President Zelenskyy is available on our Web site, YouTube page and our podcast.
Face the Nation will be back in one minute. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we’re back now with Connecticut Democratic Senator Chris Murphy. He is the author of a new book, “Crisis of the Common Good: The Fight for Meaning and Connection in a Broken America.” He joins us from Hartford, Connecticut.
Good morning to you, Senator.
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY (D-Connecticut): Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to talk about your book in a moment.
But just to pick up on where we left it with President Zelenskyy, do you believe that there is enough bipartisan support to press the Pentagon to reallocate some of these Patriots, so he can take down all the incoming Russian missiles?
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: Yes, I doubt it, unfortunately.
I think the story here has been pretty simple from the start. Donald Trump does not want to do what is necessary to support Ukraine, and the Republican Party will always follow his lead. We’ve had a bipartisan sanctions bill sitting on the Senate floor for a year-and-a-half that would tighten the screws on the Russian economy, make it harder for them to fund the war.
Donald Trump has basically had a veto on that bill. He won’t allow Senate Republicans to bring it forward. He’s been sitting on $400 million that Congress allocated to help Ukraine. He hasn’t spent a dime of it, despite protests loudly, publicly and privately, from Senate Republicans.
So I just think, ultimately, Donald Trump has decided he does not want to help Ukraine, and there doesn’t seem to be enough courage in the Republican Caucus to fight back. I mean, I hope I’m wrong about that. This is obviously a critical moment, where Ukraine actually looks like it is about to be able to take a real offensive position. And so I’m rooting that they will finally stand up to the president on this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But, to your point on the $400 million, Hegseth, the secretary of war, said that that was to be released, but we haven’t seen anything more.
I know you sit on the Appropriations Committee, so you have a chance to ask some of these questions potentially of Secretary Rubio when he sits before you on I believe Wednesday asking for a $33.6 billion budget. What’s the top priority when you do get to ask questions of the secretary?
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: Well, the top priority is ending the war in Iran. This has been an absolute disaster for the United States.
Obviously, the primary impact is here at home, as families and businesses are being ruined by gas prices that are $6 a gallon in some places. But it’s just been a humiliation for the United States. And it’s made Iran more powerful.
Of course, there’s an impact in Russia as well. We’ve had to suspend sanctions on Russian oil in order to get their oil on the market. So the consequence of the Iran war is not just that Americans are dying, that prices are going up, but Russia is also getting more powerful. We’re literally funding their war effort.
So we need the Iran war to end. There’s been this talk of a deal for months and months and months. I think the terms of the deal are pretty humiliating, in and of themselves, but we just need this war done, no matter the terms, at this point.
MARGARET BRENNAN: On the point about the sanctions, we talked about that with President Zelenskyy, and you can see that full transcript online.
But I know that the White House pushes back and says the money isn’t that significant in terms of what Russia is able to pocket. You obviously disagree.
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: Yes, I mean, I just think, from a moral perspective, no matter whether the money is a difference-maker, the idea that we are helping Russia fund this war is ridiculous. It’s not small potatoes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: Russia is getting billions of additional dollars because of our sanctions relief. That’s allowing them to buy some of the missiles that are on the verge of raining down on Kyiv.
People are dying because of our help for Russia. So, it’s just bad enough that the Strait of Hormuz is closed and it’s hurting our economy.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: The fact that we are adding insult to injury by the war in Iran helping Russia is just unacceptable.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You have written this book that we mentioned, and I know that you said about it in a recent interview that 2028 Democratic contenders are texting you, talking to you about some of the ideas in it.
Some of our recent CBS polling found that 62 percent of registered voters view the Democratic party in a negative light. So how do you take these ideas, and what’s the main one Democrats need to hammer home to redirect the party?
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: Yes, this book is really about the spiritual crisis in the country that led to Donald Trump. This is a country that is feeling more lonely, more adrift, more exhausted by an economy that abuses workers, a culture in which we tell people that they can make themselves happy by just buying things, instead of being active citizens.
And so it’s a book about the underlying work that we have to do to unrig the economy so that people feel purpose and value, and unrig our democracy so that people feel power. And that’s what the book really is about, the emotional state of the country.
Here’s what I think Democrats need to do. They need to understand that the people are furious at the fact that our politics have become captured, and people are feeling out of control of their lives because they think we’re all corrupt.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: They don’t think Donald Trump is just corrupt. They think everybody in politics is corrupt.
So, Democrats need to be much louder about the ways that we’re going to get billionaire and corporate money out of our politics, because people don’t believe us when we say we’re going to fix the economy…
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: … if we don’t also tell them how we’re going to fix our democracy.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
Well, to that point about spirit and character, the campaign for Graham Platner confirmed to CBS on Saturday that the Maine Senate candidate had sent sexually explicit texts to women other than his wife. This is in addition to other past controversies. Does he pass the character test?
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: Yes, I mean, I have not followed this story as closely as others have.
But Graham Platner is somebody that served our country. He served his community. He’s also made mistakes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: And he has admitted that.
Character also involves standing up to people who are bankrupting and corrupting this country. And this race is going to be a contrast between somebody that has put his life on the line for this country against somebody that is literally empowering the moral hollowing out of our nation from the White House.
So, he certainly admitted that he has made mistakes, but I think this is going to be a pretty clear contrast in Maine between somebody who has spent his life protecting us versus somebody who seems to be protecting Donald Trump’s corruption.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, you know, I want to ask you as well about an interview that aired right before this program with my colleague Rita Braver on CBS Sunday Morning.
She interviewed the former first lady Jill Biden about the new book she wrote, in which she talks about the infamous 2024 debate, where the then- president really couldn’t answer questions. She says a lot of things, including that she thought her husband was having a stroke, because she – he was incomprehensible.
She admits that she said to him afterwards that he really screwed up, but that’s what she’s revealing now. Democrats stridently, including on this program, said time and again that his cognitive abilities were fine. How do you convince the public that Democrats are telling the truth now?
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: Yes, listen, I think Democrats do have to be honest about the mistakes that we made in 2024.
Obviously, in retrospect, Joe Biden should have stepped away from that race. We should have had an open contest. And, in this book, I, frankly, talk about how tribal our politics have become, how Republicans are willing to excuse Donald Trump’s corruption because their entire identity structure is built around their party.
And I think that happens on the Democratic side as well, where we are willing to look the other way too often at mistakes that our own party leaders are making. And this book says that that’s not just up to politics to fix that, that we actually have to create more healthy identity structures for people outside of politics…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: … so they see their purpose through their work or through their connection to a local community.
And that makes our politics less tribal…
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: … and maybe allows us on both sides to stand up to our party when we think they’ve gone wrong.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right, Senator Murphy, we have to leave it there. Thank you for your insights today.
We’ll be right back with more Face the Nation.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to “FACE THE NATION.”
We are joined now by former Vice President Mike Pence, who has a new book, “What Conservatives Believe: Rediscovering the Conservative Conscience.”
Good morning to you, Mr. Vice President.
MIKE PENCE (Former U.S. Vice President): Good morning, Margaret. Good to see you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You clearly think your party needs some reminders here. And you write that Americans are confused about what it means to be a conservative. You say, “for many right-wing populists, grievance dictates policy.”
Who or what are you thinking about there?
MIKE PENCE: Well, I think – look, from all of my adult life, the Republican Party has been defined by a commitment to a conservative agenda. To America as leader of the free world. To limited government. Free market economics. And traditional moral values, especially the right to life.
And I’m proud to say that from the Reagan administration, to the first Trump administration, we governed on that agenda. But I wrote “What Conservatives Believe” because just in the last four or five years, there’s been a rise of what I call the populist right, that focuses more on what we’re against than what we’re for, focuses more on grievance than a positive conservative agenda.
I mean, the conservative movement has always been battling politically with the progressive left. But now there’s a new threat from the populist right that would embrace policies of isolationism abroad, that would embrace big government and protectionism at home, marginalize the right to life. And as we go into this fall’s election and go into 2028, I thought it was important that we take a moment, as a party and as a movement, to remind ourselves what we believe.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Some of what you are describing isn’t just on the fringes or within the party.
MIKE PENCE: No. Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It’s the president of the United States who’s leader of that party.
MIKE PENCE: Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And you write, he has not always governed as a conservative.
I understand that the president’s overall approval rating is low. It is. But he seems to have this vice grip on the neck of the Republican Party right now. So, how can you revive a portion of it that he is in opposition to? I mean, right to life was one of them, as you just detailed.
You split with him very publicly on that. You think he betrayed it. You think he betrayed on –
MIKE PENCE: Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: For example, spending and the way he’s dealing with some of the free market issues.
MIKE PENCE: Right. Well, look, I think the second Trump administration has got a lot right. They got the border secured after the worst border crisis in American history. They extended those Trump-Pence tax cuts that we passed in their entirety. They’ve stood without apology for our cherished ally Israel and took the fight directly to Iran.
But on other instances, you’ve seen the impact and the embrace by the president and people around him of the politics, of the populist right. The price controls on credit cards and pharmaceuticals. Nationalization of American businesses. Of course, broad-based tariffs on friend and foe alike. Add to that, marginalizing the right to life. Doing nothing about the broad distribution of the abortion pill by mail that Joe Biden and his administration made possible. And then the stops and starts on Ukraine. While they’ve been strong on Israel, strong with Iran, the stops and starts reflect more of the politics of the progressive left and appeasement than that time-honored conservative agenda that’s defined our party at home and abroad.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Why isn’t the party standing up to him then?
MIKE PENCE: Well, I – look, I give the president all kinds of credit. He –
MARGARET BRENNAN: You’ve got majorities in the House and the Senate. They’re pretty silent.
MIKE PENCE: He has earned great loyalty among Republican primary voters.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Primary voters.
MIKE PENCE: We saw that in Texas. We saw that in Louisiana. We saw that in Indiana, in our recent state senate primaries.
And I think it’s because, look, the progressive left has been essentially in the saddle for about 100 years in this country. Ronald Reagan began the battle back. I think Republican voters truly appreciate the way that President Trump has fought back against the radical left and continues to, but I want our voters to know that there’s – there is this new push from the populist right. And as we look at the midterm elections, as we look at 2028 –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
MIKE PENCE: I think it’s important that we focus on what we’re for, because not only is it a winning agenda for Republican, Margaret, I believe it’s delivered freedom and prosperity for the American people.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, when you say primary voters, you know that that is not necessarily all Republican voters. Certainly, you just look at the turnouts in that Texas race to speak to that.
But isn’t your party, from the president on down, with this gerrymandering push, locking in the changes, that will only feed into that more extreme part of the party?
MIKE PENCE: Well, I – but, look, look, it’s, you know –
MARGARET BRENNAN: The populist point (ph).
MIKE PENCE: It’s awfully hard for Democrats to throw stones when they live in glass houses on gerrymandering. You know, there are – there are states around the country that –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sure, but doesn’t gerrymandering disincentivize bipartisanship?
MIKE PENCE: Right. There’s states around the country, though, where 40 percent% of voters are Republicans and there are no Republican representatives from those states in the Congress.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you support the gerrymandering?
MIKE PENCE: So, I’ve never been a fan of partisan gerrymandering.
But look, I have great confidence in the American people and in Republican voters. I think if we hold the banner of American leadership on the world stage, of limited government, free market economics, of traditional values and the right to life high, I think voters will rally to our cause in these midterms and in 2028, when we’re going to decide whether the progressive left, with its embrace of socialism, is in the lead on the national stage or whether a popululist right that is a form of progressive politics.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
MIKE PENCE: I mean, this is – when you look at the embrace of isolationism, protectionalism (ph), nationalism of companies, and marginalizing values –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
MIKE PENCE: It’s – it is – it’s more and more an echo of what the left has provided.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
MIKE PENCE: I think as President Reagan said years ago, the Republican Party ought to offer a choice, not an echo.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But isn’t the vice president, J.D. Vance, an echo of all of those things? If President Trump’s not a conservative, is J.D. Vance one?
MIKE PENCE: Well, look, let me say, I lost count of the number of times President Trump corrected me when I said that a particular position was conservative. In fact, he said himself, he’s not a conservative. He’s never really claimed to be.
I’m less clear about the vice president’s views and his philosophy of government. But I’m very clear, as I wrote in my book, that there is this new tension within the Republican Party that will take those pieces of the agenda, the populist right agenda that President Trump has embraced –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
MIKE PENCE: And try and make that the new direction of the Republican Party. I think that would be bad for the Republican Party. I think it would be worse for the country that needs a vigorous, strong conservative party committed to freedom, committed to free markets, committed to traditional values.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Talking about the midterms, you also spent a lot of time writing about character. And you say it matters.
Last week, Texas Republicans voted to make, you know this was coming, Ken Paxton their nominee. He’s the current A.G. He was impeached by the Republican-controlled House. Multiple charges of abuse there, including bribery. His wife, a sitting senator in that state, accused him of committing adultery and is divorcing him on, quote, “biblical grounds.” He was indicted in 2015 on securities fraud charges, though those charges were dropped. And the president chose him over a much more conservative, in your description, John Cornyn.
Does character represent – does the character of Ken Paxton represent your party?
MIKE PENCE: Well, I think, as I write in my book, I think character, integrity, to principle, are enormously important in the life of our movement and the life of our nation.
But, you know, when I look at the Texas primary, when I look at Louisiana, Kentucky, Indiana, as many state senate races, I see it more as a reflection of the grip that President Trump has on Republican primary voters, who are grateful for the way that he has stood up and fought against the radical left.
You look at where the Democratic Party is today. I mean it’s amazing to see, if Republicans, in part, have lost our way with the – with embracing the populist right, Democrats have gone over the beam with embracing socialist candidates, socialist policies. I think Republican voters –
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you would separate yourself from Ken Paxton? He does not represent conservative values?
MIKE PENCE: Republican voters want to push back on that. They respect the president’s views. I just want to make sure people understand that as we sort through all these elections this year, that there’s a new force afoot in the Republican Party. And I think we’ve got to get back to those core values and principles that have always made our country and our party strong and prosperous.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, Louisiana’s senator, Bill Cassidy, his offense to President Trump seemed to be that vote to convict him in the second impeachment trial following the attack on the Capitol on January 6th. Does it trouble you that the president is even making primary choices based on grievances having to do from January 6th?
MIKE PENCE: Well, I don’t know precisely what the president’s reasons were for weighing in, in Louisiana the way that he did.
MARGARET BRENNAN: He tweeted pretty explicitly.
MIKE PENCE: I – so, you know, we have – we haven’t chatted in a while. So
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
MIKE PENCE: But I – yes. I – You know, I’ll be honest with you, that I’ll never minimize what happened on January 6th. And I’ll always believe by God’s grace, we did our duty that day to see to the peaceful transfer of power under the Constitution.
It’s one of the reasons why I – this talk of a weaponization fund, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
MIKE PENCE: The idea of creating a fund that could compensate people who assaulted police officers and vandalized the Capitol, that is totally unacceptable. My hope is the administration will drop it and drop the idea entirely and –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you think Senate Republicans will make them drop it because it’s hard to stand up to the president, many Republicans find, because of what you just said, the primaries and those midterms?
MIKE PENCE: Well, it is, but – it is, but I’ve been heartened by the number of Republicans and senators who have spoken out against it. Look, the – the people that assaulted police officers on January 6th and vandalized our Capitol should not get one dime of taxpayer money from that fund or anywhere else.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But, I mean, even just the precedent of setting it up, should they exclude January 6th attackers, the idea of a weaponization fund is its own, you know, thing that it bears examining.
But I want to explicitly ask you about something also that happened here.
MIKE PENCE: Well, in Washington, we don’t need slush funds to settle cases.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You view it as a slush fund.
MIKE PENCE: There was a pro-life family that was literally run over by the Biden Department of Justice, that it was just a seven-figure settlement for them. The DOJ can settle these issues where people have had the rights trample on, and ought to do that. I welcomed that settlement greatly.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Last week, at the request of the Department of Justice, a federal appeals court threw out the convictions of four members of far right extremist group the Oath Keepers. That was a militia involved in January 6th.
Do you think that the Trump administration is deliberately whitewashing that day?
MIKE PENCE: Well, I’ve certainly seen evidence of that. Particularly – I was offended on the anniversary of January 6th when the White House put out a timeline that literally blamed Capitol Hill Police for the riot that took place that day.
Look, I’m very confident that – of the judgment of history in the years ahead about our role, about all the Republicans and Democrats who returned that day after Capitol Police secured the Capitol and we all did our duty under the Constitution. But there’s clearly been an effort by some to rewrite that history. But I don’t expect it will work.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right, Mr. Vice President, thank you very much for sharing your reflections. It’s good to have you here in person, too.
MIKE PENCE: Thank you, Margaret. Appreciate it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: World Food Programme Executive Director Cindy McCain is stepping down from her post Monday. During her three years at the helm of the U.N. agency, there have been two famines. And when we spoke with her late last week from Rome, she told us we’re looking potentially at several more among many other challenges.
(BEGIN VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: There is this emergency response to Ebola in the Congo. That’s a country that’s already struggling, as I understand it, with about 27 million food insecure people.
I know the U.S. State Department is pledging some help here, but what are you hearing about the situation on the ground for emergency responders like yours?
CINDY MCCAIN (Executive Director, World Food Programme): It’s not good. And this is – it’s hitting people in a mass way. And there’s really no way to know right now how many people have been affected by this. We know that it’s a rampage now with it.
So, what we need to do is not only be able to get in, we run logistics, we bring in supplies, we bring in people. And we – and we do much more than that as well just in the region. But this is going to take a real-world effort. This is very deadly.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You say there’s a rampage of Ebola.
CINDY MCCAIN: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I mean are your able – are you able to keep your workers on the ground?
CINDY MCCAIN: Our workers are on the ground, but my – one of my big projects, and my – I mean the reason – a large reason of what we planned today was taking care of our own people. The duty of care. And that comes into play because right now there’s no adequate facility set up to handle that. And so we’re looking – you know, obviously putting together a task force and a team that will do just that to make sure that we’re protected as well as, of course, anyone that is from WFP.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, you have been in this role at a time when there are so many hot spots, so many conflicts. And, of course, the Mideast continues to be a big challenge. I understand that you still do have some operations inside of Iran. As you know, there isn’t a free press on the ground able to document what’s happening. What can you tell us about how civilians there are doing?
CINDY MCCAIN: Things aren’t good. I mean, let’s face it, when you shut the Strait of Hormuz and you’ve got bombings on both sides, all the way up and down, people are going to – going to not only become food insecure, but they’re going to starve. It’s time to end this and make sure that we can open the Strait of Hormuz because it’s affecting everybody. And it will take us months to get back on track when they do open it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Months to get back on track. Why is that? Because the ships with the food are stuck or because of the food prices? Why?
CINDY MCCAIN: Prices, availability, movement. A good example is that we – we do work in Afghanistan. And before what would usually take us three weeks maybe to get the food in from where it comes in from, now takes us almost three months.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Wow.
CINDY MCCAIN: And so – so, in the – but in the meantime, women and children, of which are always the first to be hit, are starving. And so, this is the case with all of them. And when you talk about fertilizer, when you talk about seeds, of course, and other things, they’re being moved around that help stave off hunger, it’s a real problem.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Bigger picture. When you look at the destruction in the Middle East, just within the past few years, how do you describe to an American at home what the longer term impact is?
CINDY MCCAIN: Well, the longer term impact, to put it very bluntly, is not good. You know, we staved off hunger in Gaza when it was finally – the ceasefire held and we were able to get trucks in at scale. We’re back to where we were. We can’t get trucks in at scale. People are – you know, as you know, there’s bombings, there’s all those things and we’re looking at a – not just a serious situation, we’re looking at possibility looking a generation of children.
So, in any of these countries where there’s an issue, Lebanon, Gaza, Syria, Sudan, all the ones that I’ve been to, plus Ukraine, it – access and being able to get in at scale is most important and makes sure – making sure that our humanitarian workers are not targets and that we respect humanitarian law. And that simply isn’t happening right now. It’s very dangerous to be an aid worker right now.
MARGARET BRENNAN: What do you mean losing a generation of children?
CINDY MCCAIN: Well, when you – when you talk about kids that are not – either not getting enough food or what they’re getting is not nutritious enough, and plus there’s no schools open and there’s no, you know, no proper housing, clean water, et cetera, medicine, et cetera, that spells disaster for a child, especially. And so I’m a – obviously, I’m one that has, as a mother first and a grandmother six times over. And so I see it through my mother’s eyes. I – you know, it – you will do anything to feed your children. Anything as a parent. And the fact that that can’t – it’s not happening in so many of these areas now is really alarming and very desperate.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’ve heard you say feed them now or fight them later. You draw a direct connection to national security and radicalization.
CINDY MCCAIN: Yes. No, you’re absolutely right. We believe that because when folks who are hungry can’t get adequate nutrition or food, they will turn to the bad guys because food’s offered there.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You recently were asked about the conservative movement. And that within the conservative movement, “aid,” you said, “has become a dirty word. And being a humanitarian, useless.”
You’re a lifelong conservative. When you describe things going this direction, that has to be hard to stomach. Why do you think this is happening, and do you think it is temporary?
CINDY MCCAIN: I will say this. Obviously, that was – that was frustration speaking to a great degree.
I believe there are many, many, many good people in the United States that are more than willing to help this cause or help, you know, whatever they see fit to do for all of this. But we need more of it. And we need – we need actionable items from, not just the United States, but other countries around the globe, that will stand up also and help us. We can’t do this alone. And we’re hoping, as you know, the United States is our largest donor and we’re very proud of that, but we need everybody involved in this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: American, though, has changed its policy towards aid. The Trump administration uses that phrase, trade not aid, arguing they’re going to be more efficient and more effective with the support they provide in the form of foreign assistance.
When you look at the places you operate, do you think there has been an impact from the dismantling of USAID?
CINDY MCCAIN: I do. I really – I do. AID was an intimate part of all of these things. And, of course, we relied on them – on them to a degree as well.
I wish we still had AID, but it was a choice of this administration. And so, we have to work with that.
I do – I am hoping, though, that eventually we can put back some of the soft power aspects that we were able to do as well. As you know, that’s a very important part of at least U.S. aid. But again, I’m not criticizing anybody in the administration, I’m simply saying we need help.
(END VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Our full interview with Ambassador McCain is on our YouTube channel and our website and on “FACE THE NATION’S” podcast platform.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: The Kennedy Center will soon once again be the Kennedy Center. On Friday, a federal judge ordered President Trump’s name to be removed in the next two weeks, saying, quote, “Congress gave the Kennedy Center its name and only Congress can change it.” The judge also ruled that the Kennedy Center’s board, led by President Trump’s hand-picked trustees, cannot move forward with its plan to close the facility in July for a multiyear renovation.
President Trump expressed his frustration at the decision in a social media post and said he had “canceled involvement with the failing and unsafe to be in Kennedy Center.”
It’s just the latest setback for the president’s effort to reimagine some of Washington’s historic landmarks. His renovation of the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool and his demolition of the White House East Wing to build a ballroom are also facing legal challenges.
We’ll be right back.