文字实录：蒂莫西·布罗格洛大主教做客《与玛格丽特·布伦南直面国家》节目，2026年4月5日
2026-04-03T07:00:01-0400 / 哥伦比亚广播公司新闻
以下是与美国天主教军教区大主教蒂莫西·布罗格洛的完整采访实录，部分内容将于2026年4月5日在《与玛格丽特·布伦南直面国家》节目中播出。采访录制于2026年4月2日。
埃德·奥基夫： 我们接下来邀请到的是美国天主教军教区大主教蒂莫西·布罗格洛，该教区负责监管超过200名在美军中担任牧师的天主教神父。非常感谢您来到我们的节目。我们非常感激您的到来，而我们想要邀请您的部分原因在于，您的事工非常独特——您并不监管某一地理区域或是大片教会地产，本质上您是在军事基地和战场上提供牧养服务。考虑到目前中东、加勒比以及世界其他地区的持续行动，我很好奇，对于前来寻求精神指引的军人，您会给出什么样的指导？
大主教蒂莫西·布罗格洛： 非常感谢您给我这次机会。这要视具体情况而定。比如说，我们目前在中东面临的情况是，牧师们仍在岗位上，但许多军属已经被转移到欧洲或是返回美国。因此牧师们发现，他们原本牧养的信众要么已经离开，要么住在临时旅馆里，这完全改变了原本的事工环境。当然，还有其他一些牧师跟随开赴前线的部队行动，从某种意义上说，他们的牧养工作会更常规一些，但受当前局势影响，这依然是一项挑战。
埃德·奥基夫： 既然您是为军中人员提供牧养服务的神父，我想您的大部分工作和关注点都围绕着圣奥古斯丁的正义战争理论，也就是战争何时才算正当：战争只有出于必要，且为了实现和平才能发动，更广泛地说，应对措施必须与威胁相称。
大主教布罗格洛： 没错。
埃德·奥基夫： 这其实是对深奥教义的简化，但核心要义大致如此。我知道，例如在总统威胁要以武力夺取格陵兰岛后，您曾在一次采访中表示，入侵一个友好国家似乎是不可接受的，这类言论会损害美国的形象。您还曾说过，如果一艘涉嫌参与贩毒的委内瑞拉船只上的幸存者并未对美军构成直接致命威胁，那么蓄意杀害他们就是非法且不道德的命令。那么考虑到中东目前的局势，我很好奇，与伊朗开战是否符合正义标准？
大主教布罗格洛： 我认为根据正义战争理论，这并不符合。尽管确实存在核武威胁，但这是在威胁真正兑现之前就采取行动以抵消威胁。我认为我会站在教皇利奥一边，他一直敦促通过谈判解决问题。我也意识到，有人会说，那你要和谁谈判呢？这确实是个问题。但与此同时，无论是在当地还是在我们的军队中，都有人丧生。因此，这确实是一个令人担忧的问题。
埃德·奥基夫： 那么如果有军人前来询问，根据您的教导，这场战争并不正当，作为一名天主教徒，我该怎么办？
大主教布罗格洛： 这是一个非常好的问题。显然，美国军方关于良心拒服兵役者的规定是，你不能反对某一场特定的战争或是某一项特定的行动，你只能表达“我反对战争”这一整体立场。我认为这取决于你在指挥链中的位置。显然，接到命令的海军陆战队员实际上无法抗拒命令，除非命令明显不道德，否则他必须服从。届时他可能需要向他的牧师或是上级反映情况。问题可能在于，将军或是海军上将是否有空间提出“我们能否换一种方式看待这个问题？”。但我也曾和其中一些人交谈过，他们也同样陷入两难境地。所以我想我的建议是，尽量减少伤害，并尽力保护无辜者的生命。
埃德·奥基夫： 您是从道德视角出发来看待这个问题的，这并非党派之争，也无关意识形态或是地缘政治。您是一位道德领袖，因此显然会有军人前来向您和您的牧师同僚寻求指引。他们多久会前来讨论如何为参与这场战争寻求宽恕？
大主教布罗格洛： 这实际上是我们教区一直在深入研究的课题，也就是道德创伤。即便你服从的是合法命令，但你不得不杀人，这也会在你的内心或是灵魂上留下痕迹。因此我们尝试建立相关机制，为身处这种处境的人提供帮助，帮助他们从这类经历中愈合。这不是要做出评判，而是要帮助那些身处或是曾身处这种境况的个体获得疗愈。
埃德·奥基夫： 没错。显然，您和您的牧师同僚们身处五角大楼物业内，显然要通过军方指挥链接受命令。最近几周，除了战争本身之外，还有很多关于国防部长皮特·赫格斯的言论的讨论，他在谈论对伊朗的战争时多次公开援引耶稣的教导，并且还在五角大楼新闻发布室公开祈祷，祈求祝福美国军人。当然，他有权在公共场合以自己的方式祈祷。但您如何看待这种将这场战争塑造成或许是耶稣会认可的行为的聚焦和尝试？
大主教布罗格洛： 这在某种程度上有点问题。主耶稣无疑传递的是和平的信息，而且我认为战争永远是最后的手段。当然，他们可能掌握的信息让他们认为这是唯一的选择。我不会对此做出评判，因为我确实不了解情况，但我确实认为，很难将这场战争说成是受到主的启示的。
埃德·奥基夫： 教皇本人也确实表达过类似的观点，对吗？他没有直接评论这位部长，而是总体上谈论战争，他说过，如果你为战争的胜利祈祷，他最近说过什么来着？他说，“上帝不会聆听发动战争者的祈祷，而是会拒绝它们。”这似乎对目前正在发生的许多冲突都适用。
大主教布罗格洛： 确实如此。我会回想起保罗六世，他很少离开意大利，但当他来到联合国时，他发表了那番极具戏剧性的呼吁，我小时候还在电视上直播看过。您知道，“j’aime pas la guerre, j’aime pas la guerre”，永远不要再有战争，永远不要再有战争。那是在1965年，我想。时隔这么多年，我们依然身处这种境况。所以我认为，我会——我认为教皇利奥肯定会支持这种说法，即我们必须找到一种让男女坐下来，找到和平途径的局面。
埃德·奥基夫： 在我们剩下的时间里，您主要牧养的是天主教军人，但现在正值圣周，逾越节正在进行，斋月刚刚结束，而在战场上，您的牧师同僚们并不区分天主教徒、新教徒还是犹太人。如今，尤其是在战争时期，不同信仰间的对话情况如何？
大主教布罗格洛： 我认为情况非常健康，因为各方都有真正的合作意愿。实际上，我认识大多数军中的拉比，因为我们经常一同出行，在圣诞节和复活节期间，对他们来说则是逾越节和光明节。他们的人数比我们少，所以我当然有机会见到他们。确实存在一种真诚的合作精神，大家都希望方便牧师们开展工作。我认为这是一件非常健康的事情。
埃德·奥基夫： 非常感谢您在这个复活节周末来到我们的节目，也非常感谢您不仅为国家，也为信仰所做的服务。我们非常感激您抽出时间与我们交流。
大主教布罗格洛： 谢谢。非常感谢这次机会。
Transcript: Archbishop Timothy Broglio on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan,” April 5, 2026
2026-04-03T07:00:01-0400 / CBS News
The following is the full transcript of the interview with Archbishop Timothy Broglio of the Archdiocese for the Military Services U.S.A. a portion of which will air on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” on April 5, 2026. The interview was taped on April 2, 2026.
ED O’KEEFE: We turn now to Archbishop Timothy Broglio of the Archdiocese for the Military Services U.S.A, which oversees more than 200 Catholic priests serving as chaplains in the United States military. Thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate it, and part of the reason we wanted to hear from you is yours is a unique ministry in the sense that you don’t oversee a geographic region or any real significant church real estate, you essentially minister on bases and the battlefield. And so given ongoing operations right now in the Middle East, in the Caribbean, in other parts of the world, I’m curious, what is your spiritual guidance to a service member who comes seeking it?
ARCHBISHOP TIMOTHY BROGLIO: Well, thank you very much for the opportunity, and it’s- it varies depending on, on where the person is. We’re dealing with a situation in the Middle East now, for example, where the chaplains are still in place, but many of the dependents have been moved to Europe or back to the United States. So they find themselves in a situation where the faithful to whom they were ministering are either gone or they’re in hotels. So that changes the whole reality. And then there are others, of course, who are with the troops that are- have been moved in. And of course, their minister- ministry, in a certain sense, is a little more- a little more regular, but it’s still a challenge because of the situation.
ED O’KEEFE: Given that you’re a priest ministering to people in the military, I imagine much of your work, much of your focus, is built around St Augustine and the idea of just war, or when is war justified, the idea that it’s only waged as a necessity and in order that peace may be obtained, and more broadly, perhaps, that the response is proportional.
ARCHBISHOP BROGLIO: Correct.
ED O’KEEFE: That’s to gloss over pretty deep teachings, but essentially, that’s the root of it. I know that after the president, for example, threatened to take Greenland by force, you had said in an interview, it doesn’t seem acceptable to invade a friendly nation, and that such rhetoric tarnishes the images of the United States. You said it would be an illegal and immoral order to kill deliberately the survivors aboard an alleged Venezuelan drug boat if they don’t pose an immediate lethal threat to our armed forces. So given what’s going on in the Middle East, I’m curious. Is the war with Iran justified?
ARCHBISHOP BROGLIO: I would think under the justify- under the just war theory, it is not because while there is a- there was a threat with nuclear arms, it’s a- it’s compensating for a threat before the- the threat is actually- is actually realized. And I think there I would- I would line myself up with Pope Leo, who has been urging for negotiation. I realize also that you could say, well, with whom are you going to negotiate? And that, that is- that is a problem. But in the meantime, lives are being lost, both there and also among our- our troops. So it’s, it is- it is a concern.
ED O’KEEFE: And so if you’re hearing from a service member who says, if your teachings, if your guidance is this is not justified, what am I to do as a Catholic who’s in the service?
ARCHBISHOP BROGLIO: And that- that’s a very good question, because obviously, the way conscientious objection is set up in the United States military, you cannot object to a specific war or a specific action. You can only object to, I’m opposed to war. So I would think it depends on where you are in the- in the chain of command. Obviously, you know, the Marine who’s given an order, he’s not in a position really, to resist that order. I mean, he has to obey unless it’s, it’s- unless it’s clearly immoral. And then he would probably have to speak to his, you know, to his chaplain, to his chain of command. The question might be, would, you know would- would- would generals or admirals have space to perhaps say, can we look at this a different way? But having spoken to some of them too, they’re- they’re also in the same- in the same dilemma. So I guess my counsel would be to do as little harm as you- as you can, and to try and preserve innocent lives.
ED O’KEEFE: And you’re approaching this from a moral perspective. This isn’t a partisan thing. This isn’t ideological for you or geopolitical. It’s- you’re a moral leader, so obviously someone in the service who grapples with this will seek guidance from you and your brother chaplains. How often do they come to talking about how to seek forgiveness, perhaps for being part of this?
ARCHBISHOP BROGLIO: That is actually something we’ve done a lot of work on as an archdiocese, the whole question of moral injury. So, I mean, even if you obey a legitimate command, but you have to kill someone, that’s going to leave some- some traces in, you know, in your- in your heart or- or on your soul. And so there we’ve tried to provide structures and- and help to- to people in that situation, to try and help them heal from those- from those situations. And that’s not a question of making a judgment. It’s just a question of healing the individual who finds himself in that, or herself, in that- in that situation.
ED O’KEEFE: Yeah, you obviously, and- and your- and your brother priests are on Pentagon property taking orders obviously through the military chain of command. There’s been a lot of conversation in recent weeks, separate from the actual war itself, regarding the rhetoric of say the Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth, who openly invokes Jesus repeatedly when talking about the war with Iran especially, and has prayed openly from the Pentagon press room for blessings upon American service members. Obviously his right to pray in public and however he sees fit. But what do you make of- of that sort of focus and- and sort of trying to cast this war as something that perhaps Jesus would justify?
ARCHBISHOP BROGLIO: It’s- it’s a little bit problematic in the sense that the Lord Jesus certainly brought a message of- a message of peace and- and also, I think war is always a last resort. Now, you know, they may have information that led them to think that that was the only choice they had. I’m not making a judgment about that because I really don’t know, but I do think that it’s hard to- to cast this war, you know, as- as- as something that would be sponsored by- by the Lord.
ED O’KEEFE: And that’s certainly something the Pope has suggested himself, right? Not- not commenting on the secretary, but commenting on war generally, that this idea that- that, you know, if you’re praying for the success of the war, what is it he said recently, he said, “God does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war, but rejects them.” That would seem to put a lot of what’s going on right now in conflict.
ARCHBISHOP BROGLIO: It certainly- it certainly would. And I- I turn back to- just to Paul VI, who- who made very few trips outside of- of Italy, but when he did come to the U.N. he made that dramatic appeal, which- which I saw live on television as a- as a little kid. You know, j’aime pas la guerre, j’aime pas la guerre, never again war, never again war. And- and yet, that was in 1965, I think. Now, so many years later, we’re still- we’re still in this situation. So I think- I think I would be in- I think Pope Leo would definitely support saying that, you know, we have to find a situation where men and women can sit down and- and- and find avenues of peace
ED O’KEEFE: In our remaining moments, you obviously minister primarily to Catholic service members, but this is a holy season, Passover underway, Ramadan recently having ended, and ultimately on the battlefield, it doesn’t matter to your brother chaplains, whether they’re Catholic or Protestant or Jewish, what’s the interfaith dialogue like these days, especially at a time of war?
ARCHBISHOP BROGLIO: I think it’s- it’s- it’s very healthy in the sense that there is a genuine desire to collaborate. Actually, I know most of the rabbis in the services, because we frequently travel at the same- the same time. For us, Christmas and Easter. For them, Passover and Hanukkah. And they’re fewer in number, so I certainly get to meet them, but there is a genuine spirit of- of collaboration, and there’s a desire to facilitate the work of- of chaplains. And I think that’s a very- that’s a very healthy thing.
ED O’KEEFE: Well, thank you for being here on this Easter weekend, and thank you obviously, for your service, not only to the country, but to the faith. We appreciate you spending some time with us.
ARCHBISHOP BROGLIO: Thank you. Thank you very much for the opportunity.