2026-06-14T15:33:03-0400 / 哥伦比亚广播公司新闻
在本期由玛格丽特·布伦南主持的《与玛格丽特·布伦南直面国家》节目中：
- 国防部长 皮特·赫格斯思思
- 弗吉尼亚州民主党参议员 马克·华纳
- 亚利桑那州民主党参议员 马克·凯利
- 加里·科恩，IBM副主席、前白宫国家经济委员会主任
点击此处浏览2026年《与玛格丽特·布伦南直面国家》全部文字实录。
玛格丽特·布伦南：我是华盛顿的玛格丽特·布伦南。
本周的《直面国家》节目聚焦：美国与伊朗濒临达成停战协议。我们将通过与国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思的独家专访，为您带来最新进展。
当华盛顿特区为在特朗普总统生日当天举办终极格斗冠军赛之夜做准备时，一项有望结束中东战争的协议即将签署。
我们还将邀请两位负责国家安全监督委员会的关键民主党议员：马克·华纳参议员和马克·凯利参议员。
尽管通胀率大幅飙升，达到三年来最高水平，但特朗普总统乐观地认为，结束战斗将阻止能源价格暴涨。
（现场视频开始）
唐纳德·特朗普（美国总统）：不，我喜欢这样。这些数字很棒。你知道我真正喜欢什么吗？我喜欢通胀。
（现场视频结束）
玛格丽特·布伦南：我们将请到特朗普总统第一任期的顶级经济顾问之一加里·科恩，为我们分析现实情况。
所有内容都将在《直面国家》中呈现。
早上好，欢迎收看《直面国家》。
我们今天面临一个关键的决策节点，这将对全球经济产生影响，还有可能结束近四个月来与伊朗的冲突。在节目开播之际，华盛顿和德黑兰之间的初步谅解备忘录尚未签署。
但如果该协议生效，它将延长停火协议，重新开放霍尔木兹海峡，并启动60天的谈判以解决其他重大问题。然而，即便双方都表示协议即将达成，该地区的敌对行动仍在继续。
今天上午，以色列国防军在黎巴嫩贝鲁特南郊发动空袭，目标是支持伊朗的真主党领导层。以色列国防军称这是对以色列遇袭的报复。哥伦比亚广播公司获悉，美伊可能达成的停火协议模糊提及结束黎巴嫩的战斗，这可能不足以满足伊朗领导人的要求。
而伊朗未能切断对其代理武装真主党的支持，这也可能不足以让美国的盟友以色列满意。
为了解最新情况，我们首先连线在田纳西州的国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思。
部长先生，欢迎来到《直面国家》。
皮特·赫格斯思思（美国国防部长）：早上好，玛格丽特。谢谢。
玛格丽特·布伦南：那么，真主党与以色列的空袭是否打乱了今天签署这份谅解备忘录的计划？我们是否能按计划在周日签署协议？
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：据我所知，一切都在按计划进行。问题不是会不会签，而是什么时候签。
签署这类协议涉及后勤工作。显然，我们一直在关注真主党向以色列北部发射火箭弹的情况，他们必须停止这种行为，伊朗也需要以非常坚决的方式敦促他们停止。以色列的回应非常克制，因为他们明白，一项协议已经——我们正处于达成协议的边缘。
所以，我不认为这会打乱计划。我也预计相关谈判会更加深入。谈判事务其实不归我管，但我认为这些会谈会继续下去。如果伊朗希望协议得以维持，毫无疑问，他们需要撤回真主党的武装力量。
玛格丽特·布伦南：那么，正如你所说，这份谅解备忘录将延长停火协议，并承诺继续谈判。
考虑到特朗普总统明确表示希望结束战斗，美军是否会撤回国内？那两艘航空母舰是否会被召回？
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：玛格丽特，我想说的是，总统最明确的一点是，伊朗永远不会拥有核武器，永远不会，绝无例外。
至于我们正在讨论的这份协议，其中一些公开的细节是完全错误的。这是一份以行动为基础的协议，在伊朗履行承诺之前，不会向其拨付任何资金。这里没有信任，也没有“信任但核查”的机制，我们将核查一切。
核材料将被销毁和移除，核计划将被彻底拆除。海峡将开放，不收取任何通行费。这不是——伊朗核问题全面协议（JCPOA）是一条通往核弹的道路，而这份协议将是一道阻止核弹的屏障，这从一开始就是目标，非常明确。
至于我们的军事态势，我们将维持必要的部署。海上封锁对我们来说是一场毁灭性的成功，也对伊朗产生了重大影响。
玛格丽特·布伦南：那么……
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：我们暂且从军事角度梳理一下事件脉络。
首先是45天的压倒性军事打击，伊朗无法招架，他们的海军没了，空军没了，防空系统也都没了——随后我们实施了海上封锁，至今已经坚不可摧地维持了数月……
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错。
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：……然后我们启动了“自由计划”地下行动，目前已有1.25亿桶石油通过海峡，这表明我们掌控了海峡。
之后我们又进行了两天的轰炸，因为他们并没有真正……
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错。
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：……坐到谈判桌前。
所以正是军事压力和特朗普总统展现出的实力，迫使伊朗坐到了谈判桌前，这份即将签署的协议将以行动为基础。
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错，但我们还没达成协议。我们甚至还没签署谅解备忘录。这正是我们今天等待签署的文件。
美国和以色列军方无疑已经摧毁了伊朗的常规军事力量，正如你刚才所说，但由伊斯兰革命卫队掌控的恐怖主义政权仍控制着这个国家。正如你所言，如果封锁解除，他们将获得出售石油的经济收益。
他们并没有投降，他们只是在谈判。那么，你如何让该地区的盟友安心，让他们相信自己仍然面临风险？在60天的谈判期间乃至之后，我们是否会维持现有军事部署？
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：哦，我们将确保军事选项始终存在。
这正是本次协议与伊朗核问题全面协议以及奥巴马政府做法的最大区别。奥巴马时期，他们乞求伊朗达成协议，而我们轰炸伊朗，实施海上封锁，然后让船只通行，必要时重启行动，以确保他们坐到谈判桌前达成一项好协议。
所以我们的军事态势将根据需要进行调整，以确保在60天的谅解备忘录谈判期间，伊朗能够履行其承诺。文件明确规定，伊朗永远不会拥有核武器，不会寻求、购买或拥有核武器。
玛格丽特·布伦南：伊朗核问题全面协议也有同样的规定。
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：我们将在60天内通过谈判最终敲定这一点。
但伊朗尊重的是军事威慑的威胁，而这正是奥巴马时期所没有的。伊朗政权如今遭受的打击比其47年历史上任何时候都要沉重——恕我直言，是毁灭性的打击。
这就是他们坐到谈判桌前的原因。所以最大的区别在于，我们是从实力地位出发进行谈判的。特朗普总统凭借军事力量主导了这场博弈。
这种军事力量将保留必要的时间。你知道，如果封锁解除，我们就会撤回兵力，允许航运恢复，就像伊朗需要允许……
玛格丽特·布伦南：好的。
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：……船只通过海峡一样。
但我们可以随时重启封锁，伊朗对此无能为力。伊朗也清楚这一点。这就是我们在谈判中拥有筹码的原因。我们真心希望谈判能够顺利进行。
玛格丽特·布伦南：好的，据我所知，协议的第一部分将涉及清理和重新开放霍尔木兹海峡。美国对伊朗的封锁将在多快的时间内解除？伊朗将能多快开始出售石油？
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：总统已经说过，会立即生效，这也是我们对伊朗的期望，不会是我们单方面……
玛格丽特·布伦南：所以如果他们今天签署协议，明天就会解除封锁？
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：……这正是问题所在。
重申一下，这是以行动为基础的，玛格丽特。所以我们不会——与奥巴马不同，特朗普总统在这些事情上很精明。他不会轻易让步。所以最终，随着海峡开放，封锁也将解除，海峡将开放，可能需要30天的时间完全恢复正常，或者两周，但正如总统所说，将立即开始……
玛格丽特·布伦南：好的。
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：……运作。
顺便说一句，我认为观众们需要记住，“自由计划”从未停止，我们已经有1.25亿桶石油通过海峡，伊朗对此无能为力。有多少伊朗船只突破了我们的封锁？零。零。我们全程掌控着海峡。
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错，但你们将与他们谈判重新开放……
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：这份谅解备忘录将立即且逐步开放海峡。
玛格丽特·布伦南：……海峡。
好的，你说会立即生效，但鲁比奥国务卿曾表示，美国将帮助清理霍尔木兹海峡的水雷。你刚才提到了30天的时间框架。我们能在30天内清理水雷并消除海峡的安全威胁吗？
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：在环境允许的情况下，我们可以在30天内完成任何此类任务。
玛格丽特·布伦南：所以我们可以……
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：所以从某种程度上说，主动权在伊朗手中，他们是否同意这项协议……
玛格丽特·布伦南：那么我们能恢复战前的航运状况吗？
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：我们正在做一些我不能在这个节目中详细说明的事情，而且——我们已经在讨论——我们已经在做一些我不能在这个节目中详细说明的事情，以确保尽快实现安全通航。所以我们对此了如指掌。
我们完全清楚局势动态。伊朗可能并不清楚，因为他们无法感知和了解自己在海峡周边的部署能力，尤其是在过去的几个晚上，他们对海峡动向的感知能力受到了重创。
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错。
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：所以如果他们有能力做到，那很好。如果没有，如果那些表示愿意提供帮助的国际伙伴愿意站出来贡献力量，那也很好。但一旦协议签署，我们期望伊朗会停止袭击民用船只的行为，你知道，包括无人机。
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错。
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：一直以来都是他们在袭击航运。
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错，他们就在上周五还这么做了。事实上，上周有一架无人机与一架阿帕奇直升机相撞。他们向巴林发射了无人机，几天前还向约旦的美军基地发射了导弹。他们仍然有能力伤害我们的盟友和伙伴。
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：这就是为什么我们必须以实力而非仅仅在谈判桌上空谈来应对这些人。正是军事力量迫使他们走到了谈判桌前，达成这项将对美国国家安全极为有利的协议。
这也是为什么这是一个如此重要的时刻，只有特朗普总统的实力和“伊朗永远不会拥有核武器”的明确使命才能确保这一点。在谅解备忘录的框架下，协议条款是以行动为基础的，要求伊朗履行承诺，确保他们永远不会获得核武器。这才是关键。
玛格丽特·布伦南：好的。
那么在60天的谈判开始后——我知道这可能会延长——届时才会处理核计划问题。
特朗普总统周六在社交媒体上发帖称——援引他的话：“在适当的时候，一切平静下来之后，我们将进入并清除核尘埃。”他是这样称呼被轰炸地点下的高浓缩铀的。
他说：“我们将将其稀释并销毁，无论是在伊朗还是在美国。”
我们的目标——计划是让联合国来完成所有这些工作吗？
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：我认为联合国在这件事上从未真正发挥过有效作用。我们将根据需要自行处理。
玛格丽特·布伦南：国际原子能机构的武器核查人员呢？
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：最终，这可能会成为协议的一部分。现实情况是，特朗普总统已经以毁灭性的方式重创了伊朗的核计划，从“午夜铁锤”行动到这次行动，再到我们已知的我们已经将他们的核计划向后推迟了多远。
我们一直在监控这些核材料，全程都在监控。
正如我之前所说，任何外部安排都将以行动和指标为基础。
将有核查和监督，无论是美国方面的，还是国际方面的。但这将由美国通过我们的谈判代表设定节奏，并以军事力量作为保障。
如果伊朗不想遵守协议，他们可以再次与美国国防部打交道，我们宁愿不必如此，特朗普总统也宁愿不必如此，但我们知道他们清楚本国军事、防空系统和作战能力遭受的毁灭性打击。
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错。
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：他们不想再经历一次。
所以当我们再次发动打击时，不要低估我们当时展示的决心——我们将重启行动，进一步重创他们。这也是伊朗坐到谈判桌前的部分原因，我们将首先签署这份谅解备忘录以设定时间框架，这就是——这就是整体框架……
玛格丽特·布伦南：好的。
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：……也就是说，我们将与你合作移除这些核材料，或者你自行稀释这些材料，但你不能拥有任何此类材料，你获得的任何材料都将受到监督和行动要求的约束。
玛格丽特·布伦南：而且……
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：伊朗也明白这一点。这就是为什么我最终认为这是一件能够并且将会成功的事情。
玛格丽特·布伦南：好吧，这些都是仍需谈判的重要细节。
根据你刚才的说法，我理解你是说国际原子能机构可能会参与其中。哥伦比亚广播公司此前报道称，美国军事规划者曾与美军和能源部合作制定 securing 其核材料的应急计划。
你是说，在谈判桌上，美国方面将提出美国军方必须介入清除核尘埃吗？
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：嗯，我——我不会在周日上午的电视节目中说明我们在任何情况下会或不会做什么。
我们将保留所有选项，这也是我们从一开始就对特朗普总统、美国人民、全世界和伊朗所说的话。
美国国防部的全部力量都已准备就绪，确保伊朗永远不会拥有核武器。我们可以用“午夜铁锤”的方式，也可以用“史诗怒火”的方式——如果需要的话。最终，伊朗需要销毁并移除这些材料，将其稀释，我们将参与其中，无论是亲自参与还是其他方式，以确保这一切发生。
可能是美国军方。也可能是其他选择。
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错。
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：我认为我们的谈判代表，我们世界级的谈判代表，将有很多选择。美国军方擅长这类事情。能源部也是如此。
所以与伊朗合作确保核材料被销毁和移除，其核计划被拆除，将是谈判的核心……
（对话中断）
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错。
这——对于那些了解美国军方的人来说，这是一个重要的问题，你是否是说地面部队将参与清除核尘埃的行动。
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：那——是你在这么说。你试图把话塞进我的嘴里……
玛格丽特·布伦南：不，我只是在问你。
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：……来制造头条新闻。
我想说的是，我们——我们有计划。不，我们对所有情况都有预案。如果总统需要施压选项，我们有施压选项，有很多不同类型的施压选项。但就目前而言，我们已经为60天的谈判设定了条件，确保这些核材料被稀释、销毁或移除，无论总统认为什么最符合美国的利益。
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错。
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：国防部将支持这项努力。
玛格丽特·布伦南：让我们谈谈委内瑞拉，过去几天那里也有重大新闻。
特朗普总统表示，美军在本周早些时候的一次空袭中击毙了委内瑞拉帮派“阿拉瓜火车”（TDA）的领导人尼诺·格雷罗。他已被纽约南区联邦法院起诉多项罪名。
我想知道，为什么选择空袭这种方式？为什么不将他逮捕并押送到美国法庭受审，就像你对待尼古拉斯·马杜罗那样？
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：我正想说，我们已经这么做了。我们在抓获尼古拉斯·马杜罗时就展示了我们的能力。
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错。
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：正因为如此，我们创造了条件，与委内瑞拉政府合作，这是一项重大突破。
我的意思是，他们邀请我们的军队进入，因为他们的领土上存在外国恐怖组织“阿拉瓜火车”及其创始人和领导人，我们锁定了他的位置并将其击毙，就像我们在中东击毙基地组织或ISIS成员一样。我们以同样的方式对待这些外国恐怖组织，就像我们处理那些由恐怖组织操控的贩毒船只一样。
所以这是一个巨大的进展。想想看。特朗普总统有远见地抓获了马杜罗，改变了双方的关系。我们在全球能源格局上迎来了完全不同的局面。顺便说一句，由于特朗普总统的远见卓识，未来一到两年，霍尔木兹海峡的重要性将大幅降低。
他让美国实现了能源独立。
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错。
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：我们是——我们是净出口国。
现在，通过我们的合作，委内瑞拉局势好转，我们正在击毙那些恐吓美国人民的外国恐怖组织领导人。从“阿拉瓜火车”流向美国的毒品和帮派活动数量，这是一个巨大的转变。这是一个巨大的胜利。
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错，能源——目前能源价格相当高。
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：……“阿拉瓜火车”对美国构成的威胁，这是一个巨大的问题。这是一个巨大的胜利。
玛格丽特·布伦南：所以我不知道能源独立是否正在帮助加油站的消费者。
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：油价正在下降。你已经看到了。
（笑声）
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：确实在下降。
玛格丽特·布伦南：我们稍后会在节目中讨论这个问题。
但我想回到委内瑞拉的话题。既然美国军方刚刚开展了这次行动，美国人是否应该明白，美国将继续在委内瑞拉保持军事存在？他们是否应该期待在厄瓜多尔和危地马拉等美国与其政府合作的国家开展类似行动？
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：是的，他们应该明白。
这被称为“美洲反毒联盟”（ACCC），我们正在与中美洲和南美洲的伙伴政府组建这一联盟，以打击、击败并摧毁外国恐怖组织和贩毒集团。
你提到的所有国家都在加强与美国的伙伴关系，我们将与他们的政府和军队合作，利用他们的特种能力和我们的特种能力，在我们自己的半球内追捕恐怖网络，就像我们20年来在中东针对ISIS和基地组织做得非常出色一样。
这是对门罗主义的极好强化，现在是“多诺罗主义”。我们正在夺回对我们半球的控制权，确保针对美国人民的毒害和袭击活动终止。所以这是——这是一项精彩的——一项精彩的军事行动……
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错。
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：……其他国家主动找上门来与我们合作，我们将充分利用这一机会。
玛格丽特·布伦南：但在你离开之前，我想问一下美国的弹药和库存现状。
乌克兰总统泽连斯基几周前曾做客本节目。他不仅呼吁提供更多拦截弹，还呼吁具备生产能力，呼吁友好国家能够生产爱国者导弹。一些共和党议员支持这一想法。你支持吗？
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：没有哪个国家能生产出比美国更好、更多的弹药，我们随时准备在任何可能的地方开展联合生产。
而且由于本届政府，我们正在“自由武器库”项目中加速发展，生产更多、更快，开放五角大楼，打破五角大楼的官僚主义，推动工业界加快步伐。
玛格丽特·布伦南：但目前存在危机……
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：所以我们的库存很充足，未来只会更加充足。
玛格丽特·布伦南：目前这些库存存在危机。私营工业领域的库存目前存在危机。
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：不，不存在。
玛格丽特·布伦南：你曾在国会面前证实过这一点。
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：不，那是——那是媒体想要炒作的编造的故事。
而且，归根结底，我们——我们的库存——非常充足。而且由于这位总统的做法，未来只会更加充足……
玛格丽特·布伦南：你曾宣誓作证称，重建这些库存需要数年时间。
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：而且，如果说有什么不同的话，那是拜登政府向乌克兰赠送了价值数千亿美元的弹药——你不必提醒我我作证时说的话。
我当时推测某些弹药的生产需要更长时间。我们有很多弹药。我们现在比以往任何时候都生产得更多。拜登政府向乌克兰赠送了数千亿美元的弹药。所以特朗普总统不得不重新填充库存。而他已经做到了，我们也在实时完成这一目标。
玛格丽特·布伦南：那么，对于泽连斯基的请求，你的回答是肯定还是否定？
国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思：最终，我们已经与他们开展了合作，乌克兰正在购买欧洲出资的弹药，很高兴看到欧洲终于站出来承担费用。
玛格丽特·布伦南：好的。好吧，他呼吁的是具备生产能力。
那我们今天就先谈到这里。赫格斯思思部长，感谢您做客我们节目。
《直面国家》节目稍后回来。请继续收看。
（广告时段）
玛格丽特·布伦南：我们现在连线情报委员会的民主党首席议员、弗吉尼亚州参议员马克·华纳。
很高兴您能来到这里。
参议员马克·华纳（弗吉尼亚州民主党）：谢谢，玛格丽特。
玛格丽特·布伦南：正如您从国防部长的发言中听到的，仍有许多重要细节有待谈判。不过，您对正在形成的停火协议和协议框架有何看法？因为您一直支持外交手段？
参议员马克·华纳：听着，如果总统能宣布胜利，那随他便。
但你也听到了皮特·赫格斯思思的说法。让我们看看真实的情况：在唐纳德·特朗普发动的这场可选战争进入第107天，谁能说我们或我们的盟友比战争爆发前处境更好？政权领导层比以往任何时候都更加激进。我认为，要提取浓缩铀，需要地面部队介入，而我认为美国民众并不希望这么做。
所谓的60天额外谈判，最终会走向何方？60天后我们还在这里，仍然无法接触到核材料。显然，赫格斯思思说我们已经摧毁了他们所有的作战能力，但他们仍然拥有大量导弹和数千架无人机。
而霍尔木兹海峡会突然奇迹般重新开放的说法，看看汽油价格就知道了。
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错。
参议员马克·华纳：油价从2.8美元涨到了4.2美元。而且我认为还会继续上涨，因为全球总体储备都在下降。
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错。
参议员马克·华纳：这对美国或我们的盟友有什么好处？
玛格丽特·布伦南：好吧，正如我所说，这里面还有很多细节——仍有待谈判。
而当谈到国会在部分取消制裁方面的作用时，这在奥巴马政府时期曾引发巨大争议。你认为最终由史蒂夫·维特科夫、贾里德·库什纳和副总统J·D·万斯敲定的任何协议都需要提交国会审批吗？国会有发言权吗？
（对话中断）
参议员马克·华纳：首先，这三位先生几乎没有谈判或核谈判技术背景，却要与在谈判桌上周旋了数十年的强硬伊朗团队对抗，真希望我们也能有一些专家参与谈判。
但我不确定这些内容是否会提交国会。但确实应该提交。我的意思是，如果总统想要发动这场可选战争——这场与伊朗的战争，此前并没有迫在眉睫的威胁——他应该来到国会，来到民众面前，阐明理由。
他没有这么做，我们也没有履行必要的监督职责。
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错。
参议员马克·华纳：我们正在慢慢争取到更多共和党人支持终止《战争权力法案》，但国会的表现糟糕透顶。
玛格丽特·布伦南：我——在我转向其他话题之前，我想明确一下，美国的情报评估并非认为伊朗正在制造核武器，而是认为他们希望未来具备制造核武器的能力。
考虑到他们现有的核材料、沙漠中的脏弹情况，这仍然让您担忧吗？美国民众应该有多担心？
参议员马克·华纳：是的，我仍然担心。
尽管他批评伊朗核问题全面协议，但当时我们有国际观察员。我们实际上拥有一个包括欧洲在内的联盟。俄罗斯和中国也都是签署国。而现在，美国独自行动，或者仅与以色列合作。这并不会让我们更安全。
再说一次，如果伊朗在未来60天内交出浓缩铀，我会很高兴来到这个节目并收回我的话。
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错。我们将关注后续发展。
我想问问您关于国内监控和关键权限失效的问题。周四，总统表示他任命杰伊·克莱顿为下一任国家情报总监，取代比尔·普尔特尔——我知道您反对普尔特尔。但……
参议员马克·华纳：不仅我反对……
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
参议员马克·华纳：……所有了解国家安全的共和党议员也都反对。
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错，有很多措辞尖锐的批评。
但克莱顿目前是纽约南区联邦检察官，前证券交易委员会主席。他能多快上任？我的意思是，他不一定具备那种广泛的国家安全背景……
（对话中断）
参议员马克·华纳：……执法背景。他曾担任证券交易委员会主席。而在纽约南区联邦检察官办公室，我们正是在那里追捕大量恐怖分子。
我认识杰伊。我认为他性格沉稳。我有很多问题，比如2020年大选谁赢了，所以他至少承认了事实真相。但请记住，玛格丽特，这完全是唐纳德·特朗普造成的。
玛格丽特·布伦南：好吧。那么……
参议员马克·华纳：他本可以在一周前就任命杰伊·克莱顿。
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错。
参议员马克·华纳：这样我们就不会出现情报权限真空了。
玛格丽特·布伦南：这是一系列非同寻常的事件，我们需要在广告休息后花更多时间讨论。
让我先暂停一下，我们稍后继续。
参议员马克·华纳：好的。
玛格丽特·布伦南：我们马上回来。
（广告时段）
玛格丽特·布伦南：请继续收看，我们马上回来。
（广告时段）
玛格丽特·布伦南：欢迎回到《直面国家》。
我们继续与参议员马克·华纳的对话。
在广告休息前，参议员，我们谈到了下一任国家情报总监的提名。杰伊·克莱顿的听证会将于下周，也就是本周三举行，对吗？
参议员马克·华纳：是的。
玛格丽特·布伦南：他能多快获得确认？这将如何阻止比尔·普尔特尔再次担任该职位？
参议员马克·华纳：嗯，我对杰伊有一些疑问，比如我想确保他能维护选举的完整性，不会像加布德女士那样，她曾干预国内选举活动，接管富尔顿县的选票。
我希望如果我们能获得一致同意，甚至可以在本周完成他的确认。我希望总统能告诉图尔西·加布德——她将任职到月底——至少待到克莱顿获得确认，或者让二号人物留任。
玛格丽特·布伦南：这是一个令人震惊的声明，因为您一直是图尔西·加布德的严厉批评者。
参议员马克·华纳：听着，我确实是严厉批评者。我确实是。
玛格丽特·布伦南：比尔·普尔特尔在几天内到底能造成多大危害？
参议员马克·华纳：嗯，我担心的倒不是他在第702条情报授权上造成的损害，那有完整的审计轨迹。如果他滥用职权，我们会查出来的。
但让他接触我们所有的机密项目，而他甚至没有安全许可，出于无知，他可能会泄露信息。我认识的几位情报机构负责人都告诉我们，他们害怕向他展示信息。外国政府也表达了极大的担忧。
我们对比尔·普尔特尔唯一了解的是，他会不折不扣地执行唐纳德·特朗普的命令。他曾利用私人抵押贷款保险信息谋取私利。让他掌管18个情报机构将是一场灾难，也是国家安全威胁。
玛格丽特·布伦南：所以，我理解您会因为这一点而暂缓投票支持重新授权《外国情报监控法》（FISA）？
参议员马克·华纳：听着，我们必须重新授权FISA。我们原本有一条顺利的路径。
玛格丽特·布伦南：这是针对境外外国目标的无证搜查工具。
参议员马克·华纳：嗯，这是一个监听境外外国人与外国人通话的工具。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
参议员马克·华纳：如果唐纳德·特朗普——他直到大约六周前才公开支持这项工具。
如果他在六周前就提名克莱顿或其他合适的人选，如果他哪怕早几天提名杰伊·克莱顿。我实际上认为唐纳德·特朗普希望这项工具过期，因为如果发生任何不幸事件，他会把责任推给民主党人。
而最不同寻常的是，通常我们在这里讨论的都是民主党与共和党对立的问题。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
参议员马克·华纳：这次不一样。
我的共和党同事们也一致认为，如果发生任何不幸事件，责任完全在一个人身上，那就是唐纳德·特朗普。
玛格丽特·布伦南：您认为总统实际上希望这项工具无法使用，这是一个非常重要的声明。
我的意思是，国会授权已于周五到期。您的共和党同僚汤姆·科顿参议员称后果将非常严重，考虑到美国目前的大量集会，甚至可能致命。
美国目前有多脆弱？谷歌、威瑞森等公司是否表示，如果您向他们索要信息，他们不会提供？
参议员马克·华纳：情况是，已经启动的调查将继续进行。
玛格丽特·布伦南：好的。
参议员马克·华纳：我们继续监听境外坏人之间通话的能力仍然存在。问题是我们能否启动新的行动。
而我们现在——我还没有收到报告，不清楚电信公司和谷歌是否会继续合作，或者因为没有豁免权，他们是否会停止参与。截至周日上午，我还没有得到答案。
我希望司法部会动用所有可用工具，鼓励他们继续参与这项计划，无论我们喜欢与否，这都将是一个短期的权限真空期。
玛格丽特·布伦南：但民主党人正在利用FISA的授权来迫使总统更换提名。他已经这么做了。那为什么还有民主党人站出来，比如阻碍甚至短期重新授权监控工具的一致同意投票？
这似乎是一个规模巨大的国家安全风险。
参议员马克·华纳：国家安全风险是唐纳德·特朗普造成的，他直到最后一刻才提名克莱顿或其他合适的人选。
毫无疑问，如果你问我的任何一位共和党同事，他们都会同意这是白宫制造的问题。最终，有人向特朗普施压，要求他提名一个理性的人选，而不是那个连安全许可都没有的人。
我们希望能尽快确认克莱顿的任职资格。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
参议员马克·华纳：然后我们将迅速推进FISA的重新授权。在此期间，我希望电信公司能继续与政府合作。
玛格丽特·布伦南：参议员马克·华纳，感谢您今天抽出时间。
参议员马克·华纳：谢谢，玛格丽特。
玛格丽特·布伦南：我们马上回来。
（广告时段）
玛格丽特·布伦南：我们现在连线来自凤凰城的亚利桑那州民主党参议员马克·凯利。
欢迎回到《直面国家》。
参议员，我想先读一下总统刚刚在社交媒体上发布的关于今天贝鲁特事件的内容。
他说，以色列对贝鲁特的“袭击”本不应该发生，尤其是在这个特殊的日子，我们距离与伊朗达成和平协议如此之近。以色列有权自卫，但它回应的袭击规模很小且毫无意义，各方都应该保持克制。
这与国防部长刚才对我们的说法不同。看起来总统担心这会破坏谈判和协议签署的可能性。您支持这份谅解备忘录吗？
参议员马克·凯利（亚利桑那州民主党）：嗯，我还没有看到细节，玛格丽特。
而且，你知道，我不知道这是不是一个特殊的日子，也不知道我们是否真的离协议如此之近。我确实同意总统所说的保持克制。显然，我们目前正在与伊朗进行谈判。我认为人们永远应该记住，我们是怎么走到这一步的？
我们走到这一步是因为2018年唐纳德·特朗普撕毁了伊朗核问题全面协议，发动了一场未经授权的对伊战争，而这一切给美国民众带来的只是成本上升，能源成本，特别是汽油，还有食品成本。
而此时，美国民众正经历着历史上最艰难的时期，难以负担日常生活开销。
玛格丽特·布伦南：好吧，你上个月曾向赫格斯思思部长质询这场战争对美国军事准备的影响，特别是补充因伊朗战争耗尽的弹药库存。
正如我刚才问他的那样，他说这是媒体的炒作，说我在编造，但也说他在国会委员会的证词只是推测。那么实际情况到底如何？我们真的存在弹药问题吗？
参议员马克·凯利：嗯，正如赫格斯思思在武装部队委员会上说的那样——我也是该委员会成员——重建弹药库存需要数年时间。
所以我们当然存在弹药问题。他自己也这么说了。而且人们普遍都明白，当你用巡航导弹、弹道导弹和航空炸弹对1万多个目标进行空袭时，你会消耗大量弹药。而我们并没有取之不尽的弹药储备。
所以现在我们必须格外谨慎，而此时乌克兰仍在需要帮助。总统现在向欧洲出售弹药，因为，我认为大家都明白，这对他来说永远都是关乎利益的问题。
但乌克兰是盟友。他们遭到了俄罗斯的非法——非法攻击。他们仍然需要我们的援助。
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错。
那么泽连斯基总统曾做客本节目，告诉我们他在等待特朗普总统批准美乌无人机交易。您知道拖延的原因是什么吗？
参议员马克·凯利：我目前还不知道，而且我认为不应该有拖延。
我也同意应该考虑联合生产。国防部长皮特·赫格斯思思，你知道，显然表示他似乎对此不太感兴趣。
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错。
参议员马克·凯利：但如果乌克兰要获胜——而且我必须说，现在看来局势的主动权在他们那边——他们需要我们更多的帮助。所以联合生产一些拦截弹是有可能的，同时也帮助他们提升无人机制造能力。
这对我们未来也有帮助。乌克兰人在这方面非常擅长，我们可以从他们身上学到很多东西。
玛格丽特·布伦南：我想回到我们和华纳参议员讨论过的话题。也就是目前暂停的无证监控项目《外国情报监控法》第702条带来的安全风险。
你在本月初投票反对两党延长监控权限的法案。你说过，在解决比尔·普尔特尔的问题之前，你不会支持任何短期或长期的延期。
现在杰伊·克莱顿已经被提名，这个问题是不是已经解决了？
参议员马克·凯利：还没有完全解决，因为图尔西·加布德离职后，我们不确定总统是否会任命比尔·普尔特尔担任代理国家情报总监。
但这很容易解决。总统今天就可以明确向美国民众表示，比尔·普尔特尔在国家情报总监办公室不会有任何职务。当我听到这句话时，我们就有了明确的路径来重新授权FISA。
玛格丽特·布伦南：这就是您要求总统本人发表声明作为您投票的条件吗？
参议员马克·凯利：嗯，你知道，我一直在重新评估局势。
我重视FISA，特别是第702(b)条，它允许对其他国家的外国国民进行监控。
这对我们的国家安全极其重要。当它失效时，会存在一定风险。
但我也认为，任命像比尔·普尔特尔这样完全不称职的人，带来的风险同样大，甚至更大，玛格丽特。如果你列出一百万位最适合这个职位的美国人，我非常确信比尔·普尔特尔不会在名单上。
让他担任这个职位存在风险。而目前我们有非常简单直接的解决办法。
玛格丽特·布伦南：好吧，杰伊·克莱顿的听证会，也就是将获得参议院确认的国家情报总监人选，如果他获得所有必要的投票，将于本周三举行。
您基本上会投赞成票吗？考虑到您反对普尔特尔，您需要一个解决方案。这听起来已经不是问题了。
参议员马克·凯利：嘿，我不了解克莱顿。我的意思是，我正在审查他的背景。他需要经过一系列程序。我们需要对他进行审查。
这个职位的法规要求候选人具备广泛的国家安全或情报经验。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
参议员马克·凯利：他具备吗？我认为很明显他不具备。但他比比尔·普尔特尔好吗？是的，我认为好得多。
他达到了某种最低限度，勉强合格的标准吗？也许吧。所以我期待周三的听证会。他需要回答委员会提出的一些非常——非常尖锐的问题。我将评估他的背景，以及我是否认为他有能力胜任这份工作。
玛格丽特·布伦南：哇。
与此同时，国家安全方面有太多严重关切的问题，其中之一就是人工智能。白宫上周五似乎加大了与Anthropic公司的争端。
白宫要求他们暂停向任何外国国民提供访问权限，这导致该公司暂停了所有客户访问其最先进的人工智能系统。您知道是否存在紧急情况吗？以及正如《塞玛福尔》报道的那样，是否因为有迹象表明一个与中国有关的组织入侵了该系统？
参议员马克·凯利：嗯，我还没有正式听说过这个消息。
但Mythos和一些其他人工智能公司的模型能力非常强大。这些模型访问系统的能力，不仅是联邦政府系统，还有金融系统，这让我们非常担忧。
所以我们必须花时间研究这些工具，进行广泛的评估，了解当我们发布这些模型时，会给美国人民带来什么样的风险。所以我同意政府的做法。我们必须极其谨慎。
而人工智能公司——你知道，我认为Anthropic是一个很好的例子——似乎愿意与联邦政府合作，确保我们不会犯错误，发布一些日后会后悔的东西。
玛格丽特·布伦南：参议员马克·凯利，感谢您今天抽出时间。
我们马上回来。
（广告时段）
玛格丽特·布伦南：我们现在连线加里·科恩，他曾是特朗普总统第一任期的首席经济顾问。目前他担任IBM副主席。
很高兴您再次做客我们节目。
加里·科恩（IBM副主席、前白宫国家经济委员会主任）：感谢您邀请我。
玛格丽特·布伦南：所以赫格斯思思部长并没有明确说明具体时间。他说霍尔木兹海峡将立即开放，但可能需要长达30天的时间。
对美国经济来说，最关键的是，经济将受到石油和天然气价格走势的影响。美国消费者是否应该期待食品、汽油和其他所有商品的价格会大幅下跌？
加里·科恩：嗯，价格不会在一夜之间大幅下跌。
我们将不得不看看海峡的实际情况。目前还不清楚他们能多快开放。但随着海峡开放，我们将开始看到市场心态的转变。人们会开始认为价格会下跌，并且会持续下跌。当价格处于上涨周期时，人们往往会提前加满油箱，因为他们认为下周价格会更高，而且他们不会让油箱见底。
当人们认为价格会下跌时，他们往往会等到油箱几乎空了再去加油，因为他们觉得等得越久，汽油就会越便宜。所以当海峡开放、石油开始流通时，我们将迎来市场心态的转变。
我们将开始看到一些影响。实际上我们已经看到了一些影响，你知道，汽油价格——我不会说很好，但比最近的高点低了10%。
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错。
加里·科恩：如果我们开放海峡，我认为我们将继续看到汽油价格下降。
但正如你也指出的，这不仅仅是汽油价格。还有食品价格。能源价格会影响整个经济。它影响制造业，影响物流，影响我们日常消费的所有商品。
玛格丽特·布伦南：而你所说的价格，是指市场价格。但对于消费者来说，如果企业已经大幅提高了食品价格。他们真的会降价吗？
加里·科恩：嗯，他们会降价——能源价格会降下来。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
加里·科恩：所以能源成本部分会下降。至于商店里的食品价格是否会下降，你知道，这需要一些时间。总会——总会有一些压力，需要有先行者展现领导力。
我们已经看到价格上涨，而如果有人想吸引更多零售顾客到他们的商店，他们往往会降低必需品的价格。然后你作为消费者会想，嘿，这种必需品在那家商店更便宜。我就会去那家店，而另一家商店需要匹配他们的价格。
所以开放市场最终会推动价格下降。
玛格丽特·布伦南：正如华纳参议员所说，商业燃料库存——7月份它们达到了一些危险水平……
加里·科恩：是的。是的。
玛格丽特·布伦南：……这可能引发第二轮价格上涨。高盛表示，由于这里新增的安全溢价，油价可能比战争前每桶高10美元。
加里·科恩：是的。
玛格丽特·布伦南：考虑到您目前在经济中看到的所有因素，您认为美联储真的能实现特朗普总统公开呼吁的降息吗？
加里·科恩：玛格丽特，你看，我们已经耗尽了全球大量的石油供应。所有主要经济体都持有超额储备，而这些超额储备目前处于相对较低的水平。所以我理解大家的担忧。
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错。
加里·科恩：所以现在恢复石油供应至关重要。
谈到美联储，你看，我们有了新的美联储主席凯文·沃什。我认为凯文完全清楚我们当前的经济状况。他明白我们的通胀率达到了三年来的高点。他也明白就业市场相对……
玛格丽特·布伦南：拜登时期的水平。
加里·科恩：……相对——是的，相对强劲。而且他也明白外界要求他降低利率的压力。
我认为凯文会摆脱政治压力，做出符合经济规律的正确决策。凯文是——你知道，这不是他第一次在美联储任职。他之前曾担任美联储理事。我认为凯文会以非常传统的美联储理事的方式行事。他会严格遵循货币政策的职责范围。
我认为他会摆脱美联储最近陷入的一些次要问题。而且我认为他会根据自己在经济中实际看到的情况采取行动，而不是根据他希望看到的情况。
玛格丽特·布伦南：但他也明确表示，我们判断经济的方式可能需要改变，需要用不同的方式看待数据。
说到这一点，我们上周看到的SpaceX的情况非常令人难以置信。埃隆·马斯克成为了首位万亿富翁，没错。SpaceX制造火箭。他们希望在太空中部署人工智能数据中心。他们想开采小行星。
这听起来像是电影里的情节，但本周这家公司进行了有史以来规模最大的首次公开募股。我们将看到更多人工智能公司上市。我们正处于繁荣周期的哪个阶段？
加里·科恩：所以，玛格丽特，现在是庆祝的时候。
我们应该庆祝美国的企业家精神。我们应该庆祝美国的工程能力。我们应该庆祝我们正在解决世界上一些最重大的问题。如果我们美国不去解决这些问题，而让中国去解决，那么我们要么会远远落后于他们，要么需要花钱向他们购买解决方案，如果他们愿意卖给我们的话。
所以我认为这是对美国企业家精神的巨大庆祝。正如你所说，SpaceX现在已经是一家有25年历史的公司，埃隆·马斯克本人曾说过，这家公司有10%的存活几率。
我们现在有了一批类似规模的公司，它们正在改变我们的生活方式，以及我们未来的生活方式。而这些都是美国的公司，美国的企业家，美国的技术，美国的工程师。
我们应该庆幸这些公司扎根美国，而不需要我们去吸引它们进入美国。
玛格丽特·布伦南：但这种转型所带来的影响，关于这对美国工人是好是坏，存在着广泛的争论。
《华尔街日报》社论版，你知道的，倾向保守派，称赞SpaceX为工薪阶层社区创造就业机会……
加里·科恩：是的。
玛格丽特·布伦南：……并且他们向员工发放了股票期权，所以通过这种方式，蓝领工人 arguably 成了百万富翁，对吧？
这是——显然这是一个特殊案例。但这对蓝领工人有什么影响？
加里·科恩：所以，你说的是人工智能的整体影响。
玛格丽特·布伦南：总体而言的人工智能。
加里·科恩：所以，你看，经济和商业领域正在进行一场大辩论。辩论的焦点是，这次与以往有什么不同，还是这次和以往一样？
我属于这次和以往一样的阵营。我的意思是，如果你回顾我们经历过的所有重大技术进步，甚至在我们出生之前，我们都读到过类似“这将是就业的终结”的报道。
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错。
加里·科恩：如果你回顾轧棉机、内燃机、电话、手机或互联网，所有这些技术发明都曾被认为会终结人力资本。
我认为历史告诉我们，它们并不会终结人力资本。实际发生的情况是，国内生产总值（GDP）增长。随着GDP增长，我们创造了越来越多的就业机会。我认为现在也是如此。
这里还有一个同样重要的现象。美国历史上最大的公司一直都是轻资产公司，且依赖知识产权。而如今美国最大的公司正在变成……
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错。
加里·科恩：……资产密集型和知识密集型的结合体。资产需要由人来建造。
玛格丽特·布伦南：好的。
加里·科恩，一如既往，感谢您的见解。
我们马上回来。
（广告时段）
玛格丽特·布伦南：在今天的节目结束前，我们快速更新一则我们一直在跟踪的新闻。
昨日，华盛顿特区肯尼迪中心外立面的特朗普总统名字被移除，此前上月的一项法院裁决下令移除该名称，裁决称国会授予了肯尼迪中心名称权，只有国会才能更改。
周五晚上有一群人聚集等待观看名称移除过程。最终，这位美国第45任和第47任总统的名字在建筑上悬挂了近六个月。该名称于去年12月安装，当时由总统亲手挑选的受托人掌控的中心董事会投票决定加上特朗普的名字进行重新命名。
今天的节目就是这些。感谢大家的收看。
下周同一时间，《与玛格丽特·布伦南直面国家》，我是玛格丽特·布伦南。
Full transcript of “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan,” June 14, 2026
2026-06-14T15:33:03-0400 / CBS News
On this “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:
- Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth
- Sen. Mark Warner, Democrat of Virginia
- Sen. Mark Kelly, Democrat of Arizona
- Gary Cohn, IBM vice chairman and former National Economic Council director
Click here to browse full transcripts from 2026 of “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan.”
*
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m Margaret Brennan in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: the U.S. and Iran on the brink of a truce. We will get the latest in an exclusive interview with Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth.
As the nation’s capital prepares for a UFC fight night on President Trump’s birthday, a deal that could potentially end a war in the Middle East is expected to be signed.
We will also hear from two key Democrats on committees with oversight on national security, Senators Mark Warner and Mark Kelly.
Despite a sharp jump in the inflation rate, now at its highest level in three years, President Trump is optimistic an end to fighting will stop the surge in energy prices.
(Begin VT)
DONALD TRUMP (President of the United States): No, I love it. The numbers were great. You know what I really love? I love the inflation.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will get a reality check from one of President Trump’s top economic advisers from his first term, Gary Cohn.
It’s all just ahead on Face the Nation.
Good, morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.
We face a key decision point today that has implications for the global economy and potentially could stop nearly four months of conflict with Iran. As we come on the air, a preliminary memorandum of understanding between Washington and Tehran has yet to be signed.
But if and when the agreement takes effect, it would extend the cease-fire, reopen the Strait of Hormuz, and kick off 60 days of negotiations to resolve the other big issues. Yet, even as both sides signal a deal is within reach, hostilities in the region continue.
This morning, the Israeli Defense Force conducted strikes in Lebanon on Beirut’s southern suburbs to target the Iranian-backed Hezbollah leadership. The IDF called it retaliation for strikes on Israel. CBS has learned the potential U.S.-Iran truce includes a vague reference to ending the fighting in Lebanon, which may not be enough for Iran’s leaders.
And Iran’s failure to cut off support for its proxy force Hezbollah may not be enough for America’s partner Israel.
For the latest, we begin this morning with Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth, who joins us from Tennessee.
Mr. Secretary, welcome to Face the Nation.
PETE HEGSETH (U.S. Defense Secretary): Good morning, Margaret. Thank you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, did the Hezbollah-Israel strikes disrupt any of the plans to have this memorandum signed today? Are we on track for a Sunday signing?
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: From all I know, we are on track. It’s not a matter of if. It’s a matter of when.
There’s logistics involved into how these things happen. Ultimately, obviously, we’re attuned to what’s happening with Hezbollah firing rockets into Northern Israel, which they need to stop doing, and Iran needs to encourage them to stop doing that in very adamant ways, and Israel was very measured in its response, understanding that a deal is on – is – we’re on the verge of a deal.
So, I don’t expect that to disrupt. I also accept – expect more robust talks there. The negotiations business is not really mine, but I think those talks will continue. And if Iran wants this to hold, they need to – they need to pull back Hezbollah, no doubt.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, this memorandum would be an extension of the cease- fire, as you said, with a promise to keep talking.
Given how clear President Trump has been that he wants to end combat, will the U.S. troops come back home? Will those two aircraft carriers be pulled back?
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: Well, what – Margaret, what I would say the president’s been most clear about is that Iran will never have a nuclear weapon, never, full stop.
And this deal, as we talk about aspects of the deal, some of which have come up publicly, are totally wrong. It is – it’s performance-based, no money released to Iran until they perform. There’s no trust and verify. There’s no trust here, and we’re going to verify everything.
Nuclear material will be destroyed and removed. The nuclear program will be dismantled. The straits will be open, no tolling. This is – this is not a – the JCPOA was a path to a bomb. What this deal will be will be a wall to a bomb, and that was the objective from the beginning, very clear from the beginning.
So, as far as our military posture, we’ll maintain what we need to. The blockade has been a devastating success for us and impact on the Iranians.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So…
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: So, think of – think of this chain of events militarily just for a second.
You had 45 days of overwhelming combat, which Iran could not manage, and their navy’s gone, air force gone, air defenses, all – then it led to a blockade, which was impenetrable now…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: … for a couple of months. And then you had the underground Project Freedom, which allowed, now 125 million barrels of oil to transit the strait, showing that we control the strait.
And then we did two more days of bombing because they weren’t really…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: … coming to the table.
So, it’s been military pressure and strength from President Trump that’s compelled Iran to this deal, which will be performance-based when it’s signed shortly.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right, but we’re not at that deal yet. We’re not even at the memorandum. That’s what we’re waiting to be – waiting on being signed today.
The U.S. and Israeli militaries, no doubt, did devastate the conventional military, as you are arguing there, but the IRGC terrorist-controlled regime, they control this country. They would be pocketing the financial benefits of being able to sell the oil if the blockade ends, as you just indicated.
They didn’t capitulate. They are negotiating. So, how do you reassure allies who are in the region and say they still feel they are at risk? Are you keeping the force posture in place through the 60 days of negotiations and beyond?
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: Oh, we’ll make sure the military option is there.
And that’s the – that’s the big difference between this and JCPOA and the way Obama did it. Obama, they begged Iran for a deal, and we bombed Iran, and then put in a blockade, and then ran ships through, and then have re – restarted when necessary to ensure that they come to the table for a great deal.
So our military posture will be whatever it needs to be to ensure they’re compelled over the 60 days through the memorandum of understanding that they live up to what they said they would do. The document says Iran will never have a nuclear weapon, won’t seek one, won’t buy one, won’t have one.
MARGARET BRENNAN: JCPOA said that too.
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: And in 60 days, they’ll be negotiations to make that final.
But they didn’t have the threat of military force the way that we do that Iran respects in a very – way that their regime is more devastated – more devastating – excuse me – more devastated than it’s ever been in its 47 years.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: And that’s why they’re at the table. So the huge difference is, we did this from a position of strength. President Trump led with military might.
That military might will stay as long as necessary. You know, if the blockade comes off, then you – you pull back, and you allow shipping to flow, just like Iran needs to allow…
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: … shipping to go through the strait.
But we can snap that blockade back at any point, and they can’t do anything about it. And Iran knows that. And that’s why we have the leverage in these talks. And we hope they’ll go well. We really do.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK, well, as I understand it, the first part of this deal would involve the clearing and reopening of the Strait of Hormuz. How quickly will the U.S. blockade on Iran end? How quickly will they be able to sell their oil?
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: Immediately is what the president has said, and that will be our expectation of the Iranians, is that it’s not us that…
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, tomorrow, you’ll end the blockade if they sign it today?
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: … that is the problem here.
So, when it – again, it’s performance-based, Margaret. So we’re not going to – unlike Obama, President Trump is smart about these things. He’s not going to just give it away. So, ultimately the blockade will stay as the strait opens, and then the blockade will open, and then the strait is open, and if that takes 30 days to fully mature or two weeks to fully mature, but it will start immediately…
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: … as the president has said.
And, by the way, I think your viewers need to remember Project Freedom never stopped, and we’ve run 125 million barrels of oil through the straits, and Iran couldn’t do anything about it. How many ships from Iran have transit our blockade? Zero. Zero. We have controlled the straits this entire time.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right, but you’re going to negotiate with them to reopen…
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: This MOU will open them immediately and gradually.
MARGARET BRENNAN: … to reopen it.
So, OK, you’re saying immediately, but Secretary Rubio had said the U.S. would help to clear mines from the Strait of Hormuz. You just used 30 days as like a period of time. Can you clear the mines and remove the security threats in the strait within 30 days?
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: We can do any of those things within 30 days in a permissive environment.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, we can…
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: So the ball is in Iran’s court at some level to agree to this deal…
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, we would get back to prewar shipping?
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: We are doing things I can’t – we’re already talking – we’re already doing things I can’t talk about on this program, and – and that – to ensure that safe passage happens as quickly as possible. So we’re all over this.
We know exactly what the dynamics are. Iran probably doesn’t, because they can’t see and sense their capabilities around the strait, especially these last couple nights were very devastating for them as far as their ability to understand what’s going through the strait.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: So, if they have capabilities and can do it, great. If not, if international partners who have said they want to step up, want to step up and contribute, great. But once this deal is signed, our expectation is that Iran will stop shooting, you know, drones at commercial shipping.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: It’s been them shooting at shipping the entire time.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes, they did that just on Friday. And, in fact, a drone collided with an Apache helicopter last week. They fired drones into Bahrain. They fired missiles at a U.S. base in Jordan just a few days ago. They still have the capacity to hurt our friends and partners.
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: And that’s why you have to deal with these folks with strength and not just ask them at the table. And it’s the military strength that compelled them to this point where they’re making a deal, which will be great for the security of the United States of America.
And that’s why this is such a big moment, and only President Trump’s strength and clarity of mission to say no nuclear weapon will ensure that now and, underneath the MOU, the terms are set that are performance-based for Iran to ensure that they never get a nuclear weapon. That’s what’s critical.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
So once the 60 days of negotiations – and I know that could be extended – start, that’s when the nuclear program gets dealt with.
President Trump posted on social media Saturday that – quote – “At the appropriate time, when all is calm, we will go in and get the nuclear dust.” That’s how he refers to the highly enriched uranium under the bombed sites.
He said: “We’ll downblend and destroy it, whether in Iran or the U.S.”
Is the goal – is the plan to have the U.N. do all of that?
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: I don’t think the U.N. has been really effective in anything here. We’ll handle it as we need to.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The weapons inspectors from the IAEA?
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: Ultimately, that could be part of it. This is – what – the reality is, is President – President Trump has already set back Iran’s nuclear program in devastating ways, from Midnight Hammer to this – to this campaign, to ways that we know how much – how far back we’ve set them.
We’re watching that material, as we have this entire time.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: And any arrangement, as I said from the outside of the program, will be performance- and metrics-based.
You’ll have inspections. You’ll have oversight, whether they’re U.S., whether they’re international. But it will be a throttle set by the United States through our negotiators with the military and strength as the guarantor of this.
If Iran does not want to comply, then they can deal with the War Department again, which we’d rather not have to do and President Trump would rather not have to do, but we know they know the type of devastating effects that have occurred on their military and on their air defenses and on their capabilities.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: They don’t want that again.
And so, when we restruck twice, don’t – don’t discount how important it was that we were willing to show we will restart this and we will set you back even further. And that was part of the reason why Iran came to the table, and we’re going to finish this initial MOU to set the clock, so that’s the – that’s the umbrella here…
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: … is, we’ll work with you to remove that material, or you’ll downblend that material, but you’re not going to have any of that material, and anything you do get will be based on oversight and performance.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And…
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: And Iran understands that. And that’s why I think ultimately this is something that can and will succeed.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, those are really important details that still have to be negotiated.
When I understood what you just said there, you said the IAEA could be involved. We have reported here at CBS that American military planners had discussed contingencies with U.S. forces and the Department of Energy working together to secure their nuclear materials.
Are you saying that, at the negotiating table, the United States is going to say the U.S. military has to go in and clean up the nuclear dust?
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: Well, I’m – I’m not going to say on a Sunday morning television program what we will or will not do in any context.
We’ll have all options on the table, and that’s what we’ve said to President Trump and the American people and the world and the Iranians from the beginning.
The entirety of the might of the U.S. War Department is prepared to ensure Iran never has a nuclear weapon. We can do it the Midnight Hammer way. We can do it the Epic Furic way – Fury way if we need to. Ultimately, Iran will need to destroy it and remove it, downblend it, and we will be involved, whether physically or otherwise, to ensure that that happens.
Could be the U.S. military. Could be another option.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: I think our negotiators, our world-class negotiators, are going to have a lot of options. The U.S. military is good at these types of things. So is the Energy Department.
And so working with the Iranians to ensure it’s destroyed and removed and their program is dismantled will be center…
(CROSSTALK)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
Well, it’s a – it’s an important point for those who are members of the U.S. military to understand whether you are saying ground troops would be involved in cleaning up nuclear dust.
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: That – you’re saying that. You’re trying to put words in my mouth…
MARGARET BRENNAN: No, I am asking you.
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: … to create a headline.
What I’m saying is, we have – we have plans. No, we have plans for everything. And should the president need, you know, a compel option, we have compel options, and many different types of compel options. But, right now, we’ve set the conditions for 60 days to ensure that that material is downblended destroyed, or removed, whatever the president decides is in the best interest of the United States of America.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: And the War Department is there to support that effort.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Let me ask you about Venezuela, because there was also big news within the past few days.
President Trump said the U.S. military killed Nino Guerrero, the leader of the Venezuelan gang Tren de Aragua, or TDA, in an airstrike earlier this week. He had been indicted in the Southern District of New York for many crimes.
I’m wondering, why go with a strike option? Why not snatch and grab him and make him face justice in a U.S. court, like you did with Nicolas Maduro?
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: I was going to say, we did that. We’ve shown we can do that when we did it with Nicolas Maduro.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: And because of that, it created the conditions where, in partnership with the Venezuelan government, this is a huge deal.
I mean, they invited our military in because they have a foreign terrorist organization on their soil in Tren de Aragua, the founder and leader, and we were able to identify where he was and kill him, just like we would kill al Qaeda or ISIS, and we did in the Middle East. We treat these foreign terrorist organizations the same way, just like we do with drug boats when we identify they’re run by those FTOs.
So that’s a great development. I mean, think about that. President Trump had the foresight to seize Maduro, change the relationship. We have a totally different energy dynamic around the world. By the way, the way energy flows today, the straits will be nowhere near as relevant one to two years from now, because of the foresight of President Trump.
He’s made us energy-independent at home.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: We’re export – we’re a net exporter.
Now Venezuela, through our partnerships, now we’re killing foreign terrorist leaders who have terrorized the American people. The amount of drugs and gangs that came from…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes, energy – energy prices are pretty high right now.
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: … Tren de Aragua to the United States, it’s a huge deal. It’s a huge deal.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, I don’t know that the independence is helping people at the pump.
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: They are coming down. And you’ve seen it.
(LAUGHTER)
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: They are.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ll talk about that later in the program.
But I want to come back to the Venezuela point. Given that the U.S. military just carried out this operation, should Americans understand that the U.S. will remain militarily involved in Venezuela? Should they expect similar operations in places like Ecuador and Guatemala, where the U.S. is working with their government?
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: Yes, they should.
It’s called the Americas Counter Cartel Coalition, ACCC, and we’re forming it with partner governments all around Central and South America to go after, defeat, and destroy foreign terrorist organizations, drug cartels.
And all those countries you named are stepping up to work on partnerships with the United States, where we work with their governments and their militaries with their special capabilities and our special capabilities to hunt terrorist networks in our own hemisphere, just like we showed we were very good at with ISIS and al Qaeda in the Middle East for 20 years.
It’s an incredible reinforcement of the Monroe Doctrine, now the Donroe Doctrine. We’re taking back control of our hemisphere and ensuring the poisoning and attacks on the American people end. So, it’s – it’s a beautiful – it’s a beautiful military thing to behold…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: … other countries coming to us to work with us, and we’re going to take full advantage of it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But let me ask you before you go about what is going on with U.S. munitions and stockpiles here.
Ukraine’s President Zelenskyy was on this program a few weeks ago. He made a plea, not just for more interceptors, but for the ability to produce them, for friendly governments to be able to produce Patriots. Some Republican lawmakers support this idea. Do you?
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: Nobody makes better and more munitions than the United States of America, and we are open to co-production wherever we can.
And because of this administration, we’re supercharging our arsenal of freedom, building more, building faster, opening up the Pentagon, ripping through the Pentagon bureaucracy to force industry to move faster.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But there are crisis…
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: So, our stockpiles are strong, and they will only get stronger in the future.
MARGARET BRENNAN: There is a crisis with those stockpiles right now There is a crisis with those stockpiles right now in private industry.
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: No, there’s not.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You have testified to it in front of Congress.
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: No, that is a – that is a manufactured story that the media wants to peddle.
And, ultimately, we are – our stockpiles are – are great. And they’ll only get stronger because of the way this president has…
MARGARET BRENNAN: You testified under oath that it would take years to rebuild those stockpiles.
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: And, if anything, it was the Biden administration that gave away munitions to the – you don’t have to read back to me what I – what I testified.
I speculated some munitions take more time than others. We’ve got lots of them. We’re building more than ever before. The Biden administration gave away hundreds of billions to Ukraine. And so President Trump had to refill. And he has and we have in real time.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, the answer to Zelenskyy’s request is a no or a yes?
SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: Ultimately, we’ve worked with them, and Ukraine is buying munitions that Europe pays for, and it’s great to see Europe finally step up and pay for those.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK. Well, he was asking for the ability to produce.
But I will leave it there for today. Secretary Hegseth, thank you for joining us.
Face the Nation will be back in a minute. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’re joined now by the top Democrat on the Intelligence Committee, Virginia Senator Mark Warner.
It’s good to have you here.
SENATOR MARK WARNER (D-Virginia): Thank you, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: As you heard from the secretary, a lot of these very important details have to still be negotiated. What do you think, though, of the emerging cease-fire and agreement? Because you favored diplomacy?
SENATOR MARK WARNER: Listen, if the president can declare victory, so be it.
But you heard Pete Hegseth’s pitch. Let’s look at the real facts; 107 days into Donald Trump’s war of choice, can anyone make the case that we, or our allies are in a better spot than before this war? The regime’s leadership is more radical than ever. The ability for us to get the enriched uranium out, I believe, will require troops on the ground, which I don’t think America wants to do.
The idea that we have a 60-day additional negotiation, where does that lead? We’ll be here 60 days, still won’t have access to it. Clearly, after Hegseth had said, we’ve destroyed all their capabilities, they still have plenty of missiles and thousands of drones.
And the idea that the strait is suddenly going to be magically reopened, look at the gas prices.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR MARK WARNER: They went from $2.80 to $4.20. And I believe they’ll go up more because the overall world reserves have all come down.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR MARK WARNER: How is that better for America or better for our allies?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, it’s – there are a lot of details in here that – like I said, still have to be negotiated.
And when we look at Congress’ role in terms of peeling back some of these sanctions, this was hugely controversial during the Obama administration. Do you think ultimately that whatever is hammered out by Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner and J.D. Vance, the vice president, will come up for approval? Do you get any say?
(CROSSTALK)
SENATOR MARK WARNER: Well, first of all, the idea that these three gentlemen that have very little background in terms of negotiations or the technical nature of nuclear negotiations going against a hardened Iranian team that’s been doing this for decades, I wish we had some of our experts at the table as well.
But I’m not sure any of this will be coming before Congress. And it should. I mean, if the president wanted to start this war, a war of choice, there was no imminent threat from Iran. Come to the Congress, come to the people, and lay out the case.
He has not, and we have not done the kind of oversight that is required.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR MARK WARNER: We are slowly moving along and getting additional Republicans to say stop on the War Powers Act, but Congress has failed miserably.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I – before I move on to other things, I just want to put a fine point on the U.S. intelligence assessment was not that Iran was creating a nuclear weapon, but that they wanted the possibility to make one in the future.
Given what they have, the nuclear dust, the dirty bomb in the desert scenario, does that still worry you? How concerned should Americans be?
SENATOR MARK WARNER: Yes, I’m still worried.
And for all his critique of JCPOA, we had international observers. We actually had an alliance there that included the Europeans. And Russia and China were all signatories. Now it is America going alone or going with Israel only. And that does not make us safer.
And, again, I will be happy to come back on the show and eat my words if the Iranians over the next 60 days give up that enriched uranium.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. Well, we’ll watch for whatever happens next.
I want to ask you about surveillance here and the lapse of a key authority. On Thursday, the president did appoint Jay Clayton, he said, who will be the next director of national intelligence, instead of Bill Pulte, to who I know you oppose. But…
SENATOR MARK WARNER: Who not only I oppose…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR MARK WARNER: … but all of the Republican senators who will know anything about national security oppose as well.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes, there are some pretty colorful statements.
But Clayton is the current U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, a former SEC chair. How quickly can he move into the role? I mean, he doesn’t necessarily have the kind of extensive national security background that…
(CROSSTALK)
SENATOR MARK WARNER: … law enforcement. He was head of the SEC. And at Southern District of New York, that’s where we pursue a lot of our terrorists.
I know Jay. I think he’s got the right temperament. I have got a lot of questions, like who won the election in 2020, so he at least acknowledges that truthfulness. But, remember, Margaret, this was totally caused by Donald Trump.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK. Well…
SENATOR MARK WARNER: He could have nominated Jay Clayton a week ago.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR MARK WARNER: And we wouldn’t have gone dark.
MARGARET BRENNAN: This is an extraordinary series of events that we have to take more time to talk about on the other side of the break.
Let me take it, and we’ll finish it.
SENATOR MARK WARNER: Great.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Stay with us. We will be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to Face the Nation.
We return to our conversation now with Senator Mark Warner.
Before the break, Senator, we were talking about the next director of national intelligence. The hearing for Jay Clayton is next week, this Wednesday, right?
SENATOR MARK WARNER: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: How quickly can he get confirmed? And what does that do in terms of blocking Bill Pulte from ever taking the job?
SENATOR MARK WARNER: Well, I have got questions for Jay, like want to make sure that he’s going to maintain the integrity of our elections, not try to pull the things that Ms. Gabbard did, where she was interfering in domestic election activities with the seizure of the ballots in Fulton County.
My hope is, if we can get unanimous consent, we could even get him confirmed this week. I would hope that the president would then say to Tulsi Gabbard, who is going to stay until the end of the month, stay at least until Clayton is confirmed or allow the number two to stay.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s a shocking statement from you, because you are a huge critic of Tulsi Gabbard.
SENATOR MARK WARNER: Listen, I am a huge critic. I am a huge critic.
MARGARET BRENNAN: How much damage could Bill Pulte actually do in a matter of days?
SENATOR MARK WARNER: Well, my fear is not so much the damage he could do on Section 702, which has a full audit trail. If he misuses that, we’ll figure it out.
But having him exposed, when he doesn’t even have a security clearance, to all our nation’s classified programs, out of ignorance, he might give away information. I have had heads of our intelligence communities say to us they’re terrified of showing him information. I have had foreign governments express huge concern.
The one thing we know about Bill Pulte is, he will do whatever Donald Trump says. He was able to weaponize private mortgage insurance information. Giving him the keys to the 18 intelligence agencies would be a disaster and a national security threat.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, I’m understanding you will withhold your vote to reauthorize FISA based on this?
SENATOR MARK WARNER: Listen, we have to get FISA reauthorized. We were on a glide path to getting this done.
MARGARET BRENNAN: This is the warrantless surveillance tool for foreigners of concern abroad.
SENATOR MARK WARNER: Well, this is a tool that foreigners – listening in on foreigners talking to foreigners abroad.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR MARK WARNER: None of this needed to happen if Donald Trump had – he didn’t even come out in support of this tool until about six weeks ago.
If he put forward Clayton or somebody else six weeks ago, if he would have done even Jay Clayton a few days earlier. I actually think Donald Trump wants this tool to expire, because he would then try to blame Democrats if – God forbid, if anything happens.
And the remarkable thing on this is, normally, we come on here and it’s Democrats versus Republicans.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR MARK WARNER: This one is not.
My Republican colleagues have worked hand in glove. If there is something that happens, God forbid, the responsibility lies with one man, Donald Trump.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That is a tremendous statement that you think the president actually wants this tool to not be accessible.
I mean, it’s – the congressional authorization expired on Friday. Your Republican counterpart Senator Tom Cotton described the consequences as severe, potentially fatal, considering all the mass gatherings in America right now.
How vulnerable is the U.S. right now? Have Google and Verizon and the rest said, if you come and ask me for information, I won’t hand it over?
SENATOR MARK WARNER: What has happened is, those investigations that have already started continue.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
SENATOR MARK WARNER: Our ability to continue to listen to bad guys talking to bad guys abroad continues. The question is whether you can start new actions.
And we are now – and I have not gotten a report yet whether the telcos and the Googles are going to continue to adhere or whether, because they don’t have the indemnification, they’ll stop participating. We don’t have – I don’t – as of Sunday morning, I don’t have an answer on that.
I hope the Justice Department would use all the tools they can to try to encourage them to continue this program for what will be, whether we like it now or not, a short-term lapse.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But Democrats are using their leverage here with FISA to force the president to change his nominees. He did that. So why do we have a Democrat standing up and, for example, blocking unanimous consent in regard to reauthorizing even a short-term surveillance tool?
This seems to be national security risk of huge proportion.
SENATOR MARK WARNER: National security risk caused because Donald Trump did not put forward Clayton or anyone else that was legitimate until the clock had run out.
There is no question, if you got any of my Republican colleagues here, they would agree this was a White House-created problem. And, finally, somebody got to Trump and said, you got to put a rational person in, not this guy who’s not even got a national security clearance.
We will get Clayton, I hope, confirmed as quickly as possible.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR MARK WARNER: We will then move very quickly to get FISA reauthorized. In the interim, I hope the telcos will continue to cooperate with the government.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator Mark Warner, thank you for your time today.
SENATOR MARK WARNER: Thank you, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We turn now to Arizona Democratic Senator Mark Kelly, who joins us from Phoenix.
Welcome back to Face the Nation.
Senator, I just want to read something that the president posted on his social media account moments ago in regard to the events today in Beirut.
He said, the attack, the Israeli “attack on Beirut, should not have happened, particularly on a special day, when we are so close to a peace deal with Iran. Israel has a right to defend itself, but the attack it was responding to was very small and meaningless, and all sides should stand down.”
That’s a different response than what the secretary of defense shared with us. It seems like the president is worried this could disrupt the negotiation and the possibility of a deal being signed. Do you support the memorandum of understanding?
SENATOR MARK KELLY (D-Arizona): Well, I haven’t seen the details yet, Margaret.
And, you know, I don’t know if this is a special day and if we’re very close to a deal. I do agree with what the president said about standing down. It’s obvious that we’re negotiating with the Iranians at this point. I think it’s always important for folks to remember, how did – how did we get here?
We’re here because, in 2018, Donald Trump tore up the JCPOA and got us into an unauthorized war with the Iranians, and all this has done for the American people is driven up costs, the costs of energy, so specifically gasoline, the cost of food.
And this is at a time when the American people are having a historic time just affording their lives.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, you questioned Secretary Hegseth last month about what this war did to American military preparedness, specifically restocking munitions that are depleted by the Iran war.
As I questioned him about that, he said it was a media narrative, that I was making it up, but also said his testimony before your committee was speculation. What’s the reality check there? Do we have a munitions problem?
SENATOR MARK KELLY: Well, as Secretary Hegseth said in front of the Armed Services Committee, of which I’m a member, this will take years to rebuild the stockpiles of munitions.
So, of course we have a munitions issue. I mean, it just came from him. And I think it’s widely understood that, when you attack over 10,000 targets from the air with cruise missiles and ballistic missiles and bombs from airplanes, you are using a lot of munitions. And we do not have an endless supply of these things.
So, now we’re in a posture where we’ve got to be incredibly careful, and this is also at a time when Ukraine continues to need some help. The president now sells munitions to the Europeans because, I think, as everybody understands, this is always about the bottom line for him.
But Ukraine is an ally. They’ve been illegally – illegally attacked by the Russians. And they still need our assistance.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
Well, President Zelenskyy was on this program and told us he’s waiting on President Trump to say yes to a U.S.-Ukraine drone deal. Do you know what the holdup is?
SENATOR MARK KELLY: I do not at this point, and I don’t think there should be a holdup.
I also agree that we should consider some co-manufacturing. Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth, you know, clearly indicated that he didn’t – he didn’t seem very interested in this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR MARK KELLY: But if Ukraine is going to win – and I got to say, right now, it seems like the momentum is on their side – they need additional help from us. So, co-production of some interceptors could be a possibility, but also help with their drone manufacturing.
And this could also help us in the future. The Ukrainians are really good at this, and we have a lot we could learn from them.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to come back to something we were discussing with Senator Warner. And that is the security risk that is resulting from having this warrantless surveillance program, Section 702, suspended right now.
You, earlier this month, voted against a bipartisan bill extending surveillance authority. You said any short- or long-term extension, you would not be in favor of until you solve the Bill Pulte problem.
Hasn’t that problem been solved now that Jay Clayton is the nominee?
SENATOR MARK KELLY: Not completely, because, when Tulsi Gabbard leaves, we’re not so sure if the president is going to put Bill Pulte in as the acting DNI.
But this is very easy to solve. The president could today make it very clear to the American people that Bill Pulte is going to have no role in the Office of the Director of National Intelligence. When I hear that, then we have a very straightforward path to getting FISA renewed.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s the price of your vote, is that statement from the president himself?
SENATOR MARK KELLY: Well, I mean, you know, I’m constantly reevaluating the situation.
I value FISA, especially 702(b), that allows surveillance of foreign nationals in other countries.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR MARK KELLY: It is incredibly important to our national security. And when it lapses, there is some risk.
But I also think there is as much, if not more risk of putting somebody, Bill Pulte specifically, who is – who is unqualified for this job, Margaret. If you made a list of the one million most qualified Americans for this position, I am very confident that Bill Pulte would not be on that list.
There’s risk in putting him in this position. And it’s pretty straightforward right now how – how we solve this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, the hearing for Jay Clayton, who would be the Senate-confirmed head of national intelligence, if he gets all these votes, is this Wednesday.
Are you pretty much a definite yes? I mean, given your opposition to Pulte, you need a solution. It sounds like this is not a question.
SENATOR MARK KELLY: Hey, I don’t know Clayton. I mean, I’m reviewing his background. He’s got a process to go through. We need to vet him.
The statute for this job says somebody will have extensive national security or intelligence experience.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR MARK KELLY: Does he have that? I think it’s pretty clear he does not. Is he better than Bill Pulte? Yes, I think a lot better.
Does he meet some kind of maybe a minimum, barely minimum standard? Perhaps. So, I’m looking forward to Wednesday. He’s got to answer some tough, tough questions from the committee. And I will evaluate his background and whether or not I think he’s prepared to do this job.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Wow.
Meanwhile, there are so many issues of – of serious concern on the national security front, one of them artificial intelligence. The White House on Friday came out and seemed to really ramp up the dispute with Anthropic.
The White House told them to suspend access to any foreign nationals, which led the company to suspend all customers from accessing its most advanced A.I. systems. Do you know if there is an emergency? And is it, as reported by Semafor, because there was suspicion that a China-linked group had accessed it?
SENATOR MARK KELLY: Well, I haven’t officially heard that.
But Mythos and some of their other models from A.I. companies are incredibly capable. And some of the capabilities that these models have to access systems, not only federal government systems, but financial systems, is very concerning to us.
So we’ve got to take some time with these tools and do extensive evaluations as to, what is the risk to the American people when we release these? So I agree with the administration on this. We’ve got to be incredibly careful.
And the A.I. companies – and, you know, I think Anthropic is a good example – seems to be willing to work with the federal government on this to make sure that we do not make a mistake and release something that we will later regret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator Mark Kelly, thank you for your time today.
We’ll be back in a moment.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’re joined now by Gary Cohn, who was the top economic adviser to President Trump in his first term. He is currently Vice Chairman at IBM.
Good to have you back here.
GARY COHN (IBM Vice Chairman, Former Director, White House National Economic Council): Thanks for having me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, Secretary Hegseth says didn’t give a lot of clarity on the exact time. He said both the Strait of Hormuz would be immediately open, but that it could take up to 30 days.
The bottom line for the economy here, it’s going to be impacted by what happens with oil and gas prices. Should American consumers expect that the prices they’re paying for their food and their gas and everything else is going to fall like a rock?
GARY COHN: Well, it’s not going to fall like a rock overnight.
We’re going to have to see exactly what happens in the straits. It was not clear how quickly they’ll open. But as they do open, we will start getting a change in psychology. People will start thinking that prices are going down, and they will continue to go down. When you’re in an upward price environment, people tend to fill their tanks up early because they think the price is going to be higher next week, and they tend to not let their tanks go down.
When you’re in an environment when you think the price is going to get cheaper, people tend to drive their cars till they’re almost empty, because they think, the longer I wait, the cheaper gas will be. So we’re going to be in a psychological change when the straits open and as oil starts flowing out.
We will start to see some impact. We’ve actually already seen some impact, you know, where – where gas prices are, I won’t say well, but they’re 10 percent off their recent highs.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
GARY COHN: And if we open the straits, I think we’ll continue to see these gas prices come down.
But, as you also point out, it’s not just the price of gasoline. It’s the price of groceries. The price of energy feeds through the entire economy. It feeds through manufacturing. It feeds through delivery. It feeds through everything we consume as daily consumers.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And what you’re talking about in prices, you’re talking about the price at market. But, for the price for consumers, if companies have already jacked up the price of food. Are they really going to bring it back down?
GARY COHN: Well, they will bring it back – the price of energy will come back down.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
GARY COHN: So the energy component will come back down. Whether actual food at the store will come back down, you know, it will take some time. There’s always – there’s always some pressure, and it takes a first mover to show some leadership.
We’ve seen prices go up, and then if someone wants to bring more and more retail traffic into their store, they tend to cut the price of a necessity good. And you, as a consumer, say, hey, that necessity good is cheaper at that store. I then go into that store, and the other store needs to match their price.
So the open market will drive prices down over time.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Because, as Senator Warner was talking about, those fuel inventories, commercial fuel inventories, they’re hitting some risky levels in July…
GARY COHN: Yes. Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: … that could cause a secondary price cycle. Goldman Sachs said, what, $10 higher per barrel than before the war, because there’s this new security premium built in here.
GARY COHN: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Given all the forces you are seeing in the economy right now, do you think the Federal Reserve can really do the kind of rate cut that President Trump very publicly says is he wants to see?
GARY COHN: Margaret, look, we have exhausted a lot of the global supply of oil. All the major economies do carry an excess reserve, and those excess reserves are at relatively low levels. So, I understand what everyone’s concerned about.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
GARY COHN: So, getting oil back online now is important.
When it comes to the Federal Reserve, look, we have a new Federal Reserve chairperson, Kevin Warsh. I think Kevin is completely acknowledging where we are in the economy. He understands that we’ve got inflation at three- year highs. He also understands that the job market is relative…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Biden levels.
GARY COHN: … relatively – yes, relatively strong. And he also understands there’s pressure on him to lower interest rates.
I think Kevin will remove himself from the political pressure, and he will do the right thing economically. Kevin is – you know, this is not his first time on the Federal Reserve. He was a Fed governor before. I think Kevin will approach this as a very traditional Fed governor. He will stay heavily involved in his lane in monetary policy.
I think he will stay outside of the secondary issues that the Fed has gotten in more recently. And I think he will also be in a position where he will move based on what he is actually seeing in the economy, not what he hopes he sees in the economy.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But he’s also made clear he thinks sort of how we judge the economy may need to change and look at data differently.
To that point, what we saw this past week with SpaceX was pretty incredible. Elon Musk is the first trillionaire, with a T. SpaceX, they make rocket ships. They want to put A.I. data centers in space. They want to mine asteroids.
I mean, it sounds like it’s straight out of the movies, but this was a huge publicly traded debut this week, the largest ever. We’re going to see more A.I. companies also go public. Where are we in the boom?
GARY COHN: So, Margaret, this is a time to celebrate.
We should celebrate America’s entrepreneurial spirit. We should celebrate America’s engineering capabilities. We should celebrate the fact that we are solving some of the biggest problems in the world. And if we in America were not solving these problems, and the Chinese were, we would, A, be way behind them or, B, paying them to solve our problems, if they were willing to sell us a solution.
So, I look at this as a massive celebration in American entrepreneurial spirit. As you said, it isn’t stopping the SpaceX. And SpaceX is now about a 25-year-old company, one where Elon Musk himself said there’s a 10 percent chance this company even survives.
We now have a handful of companies, almost of that size, that are changing the way you and I live our lives and how we’re going to change our lives going forward. And these are American-based companies, American entrepreneurs, American technology, and American engineers.
We should be lucky that we have these companies here domestically, and we’re not having to entice them into the United States.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But what – what they’re facilitating with this transformation, there’s this whole debate about whether it’s good or bad for American workers.
“The Wall Street Journal” editorial board, conservative-leaning, as you know, was extolling the benefit of SpaceX creating jobs for working-class communities…
GARY COHN: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: … and said they gave stock options to their workers, so they made blue-collar workers arguably millionaires, right, by doing something like that.
Is that – I mean, this is a special case, clearly. But what is the impact on blue-collar workers?
GARY COHN: So, you’re talking about A.I. in general.
MARGARET BRENNAN: A.I. generally.
GARY COHN: So, look, there’s a large debate going on in the economy today, in business today. And the debate is, is this time different or is this time the same?
I’m in the camp that this time is the same. And what I mean by that is, if you look back at all of the major technological advancements that we have lived through and before we were alive, we read stories about how this was the end of employment.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
GARY COHN: If you go back to the cotton gin, or the internal combustion engine, or the telephone, or the cell phone or the Internet, all of these technological inventions were supposed to be the demise of human capital.
I think what we have found in the history is, they’re not the demise of human capital. What happens is, the gross domestic product, the GDP of the country grows. As it grows, we create more and more jobs. And I think that’s what’s going on here.
There’s another phenomenon that’s equally as important here. The largest companies in America historically have been asset-light companies, and they’ve been intellectual property-heavy. The largest companies in America today are becoming…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
GARY COHN: … a combination of asset-based companies and intellectual companies. The assets need to be built by people.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
Gary Cohn, good to have your insights, as always.
We will be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Before we go today, a quick update on a story we have been tracking.
President Trump’s name was removed yesterday from the facade of the Kennedy Center here in Washington, D.C., after a court ruling last month ordered it to be taken down, declaring Congress gave the Kennedy Center its name, and only Congress can change it.
A crowd of people gathered Friday night waiting to watch its removal. In the end, the name of the 45th and 47th president adorned the building for almost six months. It was installed in December after the center’s board controlled by the president’s handpicked trustees voted to rebrand with the addition of the Trump moniker.
That’s it for us today. Thank you all for watching.
Until next week, for Face the Nation, I’m Margaret Brennan.