文字实录：退役上将弗兰克·麦肯锡做客《与玛格丽特·布伦南直面国家》节目 2026年7月12日
2026-07-12T12:36:45-0400 / 哥伦比亚广播公司新闻
以下是2026年7月12日播出的《与玛格丽特·布伦南直面国家》节目对美国中央司令部前司令、要塞军事学院校长退役上将弗兰克·麦肯锡的采访实录。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 我们接下来请到的是美国中央司令部前司令、退役上将弗兰克·麦肯锡。将军，欢迎再次做客。我刚才回看了我上周和林赛·格雷厄姆参议员在《直面国家》节目中的对话，这位参议员当时说：“如果这项协议失败，特朗普总统将武力夺取霍尔木兹海峡，美国将掌控霍尔木兹海峡。”那是三周前的事。美国要如何掌控霍尔木兹海峡？
弗兰克·麦肯锡上将： 玛格丽特，如果总统选择采取这一行动方针，我们当然有能力掌控霍尔木兹海峡。听着，特朗普政府一直试图通过外交和政治途径解决问题，我对此表示赞赏，而且我认为我们都应该将此作为最终目标。尽管如此，事实是伊朗人通常只会对军事力量和极端压力做出回应。我们这里讨论的不是政权更迭，我们谈论的是改变这个极端强硬政权的观点和行动，这是有可能的。美国军方拥有这样的能力，只要总统选择动用它。这包括开放霍尔木兹海峡、维持海峡通航畅通，事实上，如果我们选择这么做，还可以占领哈尔克岛。顺便说一句，我认为我们应该考虑这么做，因为占领伊朗领土将成为未来与伊朗谈判的重要筹码。所以所有选项都摆在台面上。我不确定我们最终会走向何方，但我确实知道我们具备这些能力。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 我们确实拥有这些能力，但总统已经明确表示，他某种程度上只是想要达成一项协议。当总统说我们掌控霍尔木兹海峡，但中央司令部又表示美军部署的目的是确保航行自由，这听起来好像这里的通航并非完全自由，你要如何向普通人解释这一点？
弗兰克·麦肯锡上将： 目前确实不是完全自由的，因为我们尚未部署所有可以打通海峡的能力。我们当然可以做到这一点，但这需要将战舰部署到狭窄水域。美国海军并不愿意这么做，但他们非常擅长这项任务，如果有必要，他们可以做到，而且能做得很好。你得回顾伊朗治国方略的基本原则，那就是维护政权。如果你想从伊朗那里获得让步，就必须直接向该政权施压，而且必须以可能对其构成生存威胁的方式施压。只要总统选择这条路，我们就有能力这么做。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 这些能力是否需要投入地面部队？对于伊朗领导层在拒绝特朗普政府提供的所有经济激励措施的同时，似乎愿意承受如此大的代价，你是否感到意外？
弗兰克·麦肯锡上将： 玛格丽特，考虑到伊朗多年来的谈判立场，我对伊朗目前的姿态一点也不感到意外。一位前中央司令部司令曾说过：“你知道，伊朗从未打过一场他们能赢的战争，也从未有过一场他们会输的谈判。”这说得非常正确。伊朗想要做的就是拖延谈判时间，争论谈判桌的大小、谁可以参会、文件的字体，除了核心问题之外的所有事情。我们需要认清这一点，并准备好向伊朗施压，让他们就真正相关的问题进行谈判。我的意思是，开放霍尔木兹海峡、在弹道导弹问题上做出一些让步、在支持代理人武装方面有所收敛。所有这些问题我们都有能力推动伊朗采取某种程度的松动。我们只是必须愿意向伊朗施压，以实现这些目标。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 我的意思是，据中央司令部消息，约旦 overnight 有三枚导弹落入其境内，没有造成人员伤亡。但伊朗仍在向巴林、科威特、卡塔尔、阿曼发射导弹。他们仍然能够瞄准美国的合作伙伴和美军驻扎的地点。这让你感到意外吗？
弗兰克·麦肯锡上将： 这一点也不让我意外。实际上让我意外的是——不，不是意外，而是让我欣慰的是，伊朗的攻击规模和强度并没有更大。多年前，我们在兵棋推演中模拟这类场景时，曾假设伊朗的反击会更加猛烈。而实际情况并没有那么激烈，这证明了库珀海军上将和中央司令部的能力——他们能够追踪这些目标，让伊朗难以针对我们的部队发动协调一致的大规模打击。听着，这些袭击还会继续。我们正在进行的这场较量并非不流血——
玛格丽特·布伦南： 没错。
弗兰克·麦肯锡上将： ——基地会遭到袭击，建筑会被摧毁，不幸的是，会有人丧生。如果我们打算继续这场博弈，继续对抗伊朗——我相信这么做符合我们的利益——我们就必须做好应对这种情况的准备。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 简单说说，你对格雷厄姆参议员有什么看法？
弗兰克·麦肯锡上将： 格雷厄姆参议员是南卡罗来纳州的优秀代表。在我们国家，他是国家安全领域的杰出声音，也是南卡罗来纳要塞军事学院的特别挚友。多年来，他为我们学校做了很多了不起的事。事实上，他体现了国民兵的理念：他不是职业军官，却拥有广泛而深入的公共职业经历，同时还身着军装为国家服务。这正是我们在要塞军事学院致力培养的人才。没有比林赛·格雷厄姆更值得效仿的人了——
玛格丽特·布伦南： 好的。
弗兰克·麦肯锡上将： ——我们会非常想念他。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 将军，感谢你抽出时间。我们稍后回来。
Transcript: Retired Gen. Frank McKenzie on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan,” July 12, 2026
2026-07-12T12:36:45-0400 / CBS News
The following is the transcript of an interview with retired Gen. Frank McKenzie, former commander of U.S. Central Command and president of The Citadel, that aired on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” on July 12, 2026.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We go now to the former commander of the U.S. Central Command, retired General Frank McKenzie. General, welcome back. You know, I was just looking back at my last conversation on Face the Nation with Lindsey Graham, and the senator said, “If this deal fails, President Trump is going to take the Strait of Hormuz over by force. The U.S. will control the Strait of Hormuz.” That was three weeks ago. How does the United States end up controlling the Strait of Hormuz?
GENERAL FRANK MCKENZIE: Well, Margaret, we certainly have the capability to control the Strait of Hormuz if the president chooses to follow that course of action. Look, what he’s been trying to do is get to a diplomatic and a political solution here, which I applaud, and I think we should all want to see as the final end state. Nonetheless, the fact of the matter is the Iranians generally only respond to military force and to extreme pressure. Look, we’re not talking about regime change here. What we’re talking about is modifying the- the views and actions of an extreme hardli- hardline regime, that is possible. We have the capability to do that. That capability is resident in the U.S. military should the president elect to employ it. That would include opening the Strait of Hormuz, maintaining the Strait of Hormuz open, and in fact, seizing Kharg Island, should we elect to do that. And I would just say, as an aside, that’s something we should think about doing because possession of Iranian soil would be a significant factor in future negotiations with Iran. So all those options are on the table. I’m not sure where we’re going to go with this, but I do know we have these capabilities.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We have those capabilities, but the president has made clear he- he kind of just wants a- he wants a deal here. How do you explain to the layperson when the president says we control the Strait of Hormuz, but then CENTCOM says military forces are positioned to ensure freedom of navigation, which makes it sound it isn’t exactly free-flowing traffic here?
GEN. MCKENZIE: No, it’s not right now because we have not deployed all the capabilities that we have to open the Strait. We certainly can do that. It would require putting warships up into narrow waters. Look, the U.S. Navy doesn’t love to do that, but they’re very good at it, and if necessary, they can do it, and they can do it well. You got to go back to the basic principle of Iranian statecraft, which is regime preservation. If you want to gain concessions from Iran, you have to directly pressure the regime, and you have to do so in a way that perhaps is existential to them. We have those capabilities should the president choose to go that way.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do those capabilities in- need to involve ground troops? And have you been at all surprised by the amount of pain that it appears the Iranian leadership is willing to take on here, while turning down all the financial incentives the Trump administration is offering them?
GEN. MCKENZIE: Margaret, given the history of Iran- Iran and their negotiation posture- negotiating posture over many years, I’m not surprised at all by- by the current Iranian posture. A former CENTCOM commander once said, “You know, Iran has never met a war they could win or a negotiation they could lose.” And that’s very true. What Iran wants to do is extend negotiations in time, arguing about the size of the table, who’s in the room, the font on the document, everything about- except the core issues. We need to recognize that, and we need to be prepared to pressure Iran to negotiate on the real germane issues. And by that, I mean opening the Strait of Hormuz, some movement on ballistic missiles, some movement on support for proxies. All those things are capable- we are capable of getting some form of movement on all those things. We just have to be willing to put pressure on Iran in order to achieve those goals.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I mean, Jordan said overnight three missiles fell into their territory, and there were no casualties, according to CENTCOM. But they’re- they’re firing off at Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar, Oman. They continue to be able to target American partners and places where American troops are. Does that surprise you?
GEN. MCKENZIE: It does not surprise me at all. What surprises me actually is- not surprises me, but what gratifies me is that Iranian attacks have been- not been larger or more capable. Many years ago, when we war-gamed scenarios like this, we assumed the Iranian response would be more robust. The fact that it is not more robust is a testimony to Admiral Cooper and Central Command’s ability to- to go after these targets and make it hard for Iran to fashion, you know, cohesive large strikes against our forces. Now look, these strikes are going to continue. This is not a- this is not a bloodless endeavor we’re embarked upon–
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yeah.
GEN. MCKENZIE: –and bases are going to be hit, and buildings are going to be destroyed, and tragically, people are going to die. And if we’re going to stay in this game and continue to confront Iran, which I believe is in our interest to do, we’ve got to be prepared for this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Quickly, your thoughts on Senator Graham?
GEN. MCKENZIE: Senator Graham was a great representative of the state of South Carolina. In our nation, a great voice in the national security space, and a particular friend to the Citadel, the Military College of South Carolina. Over many years, he’s done a lot of great things for our school. In fact, he embodies the concept of the citizen soldier. The person who isn’t a professional military officer pursues a broad, deep, public professional career, and yet dons the uniform and serves his nation. That’s what we seek to produce at the Citadel. No better person to emulate than Lindsey Graham–
MARGARET BRENNAN: Okay.
GEN. MCKENZIE: –and we will miss him dearly.
MARGARET BRENNAN: General, thank you for your time. We’ll be right back.
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