转录：美国前司法部长埃里克·霍尔德做客《与玛格丽特·布伦南直面国家》节目，2026年4月19日
2026-04-19T13:51:13-0400 / 哥伦比亚广播公司新闻
2026年4月19日 / 美国东部时间下午1:51 / 哥伦比亚广播公司新闻
以下是奥巴马政府司法部长埃里克·霍尔德2026年4月19日在《与玛格丽特·布伦南直面国家》节目中接受采访的完整转录内容。
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玛格丽特·布伦南： 我们今天请到了曾在前总统奥巴马任期内担任司法部长的埃里克·霍尔德。很高兴您能来到节目中。
前司法部长埃里克·霍尔德： 很高兴能来。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 您一直在参与选区重划工作，您是全国民主党选区重划委员会的主席。弗吉尼亚州的选民即将就是否以有利于民主党人的方式重新划分选区进行投票。据我所知，不仅仅是您在推动此事，前总统奥巴马、弗吉尼亚州州长也都在支持这项举措，称此举将恢复选举公平。但按照党派界限划分选区，这难道不是在操纵选举结果吗？这怎么能算得上公平？
霍尔德： 我们必须全面看待这个问题。这实际上是一场全国性的斗争，不仅仅关乎弗吉尼亚州。当年总统告诉得克萨斯州州长阿博特，我们需要在众议院多争取五个席位，对此必须做出回应。加利福尼亚州州长随后决定，好吧，我们将——我们将征询加州选民的意见，是否愿意对得克萨斯州的做法做出回应。我们现在也在征询弗吉尼亚州选民的意见，询问他们是否愿意对得克萨斯州、密苏里州以及北卡罗来纳州发生的情况做出回应。我们想要做的是建立一套体系，让民众能够真正决定众议院的组成，这样众议院才能有效制衡这位总统。因此，弗吉尼亚州正在做的事，以及加州之前所做的，都只是对共和党人在得克萨斯州开启的操作的回应。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 但在弗吉尼亚州，早就设立了两党委员会来负责这项工作。我的意思是，那听起来很公平，是两党委员会。那么，通过举行此次公投修改选区地图，您说这只是一项临时措施，您如何保证这确实是临时的，并且这种情况不会一再发生？
霍尔德： 这项法案本身就规定了——它是有时间限制的。它仅适用于本次选举周期，再加上一个额外的周期，在人口普查之后——
玛格丽特·布伦南： 但这之后还可以再次修改啊。
霍尔德： 不，我们不会推动修改这项条款。我们需要先解决当前面临的危机，找到应对这场危机的办法，之后再回到加州和弗吉尼亚州的选区重划委员会的工作中来。我认为有一点非常重要，那就是弗吉尼亚州的民众有权自行做出决定，就像加州民众之前所做的那样，而不是——
玛格丽特·布伦南： 因为他们可以通过公投——
霍尔德： ——而不是像得克萨斯州、密苏里州和北卡罗来纳州那样，由政客强行推行那些政策。那些做法极不受欢迎，但共和党政客无视这些州民众的意愿，强行建立了这类机制。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 但换个角度来看，总统所在的政党目前面临诸多不利因素。我们一直在讨论这场战争以及随之而来的能源成本问题。从历史上看，总统所在的政党在中期选举中通常表现不佳。那么民主党为什么要这么做呢？这听起来像是在承认民主党无法仅凭自身实力获胜，必须通过这些手段才能取胜。
霍尔德： 如果是公平竞争，民主党当然能够获胜。而我的问题是——
玛格丽特·布伦南： ——但在弗吉尼亚州，这场竞争本就不公平？
霍尔德： 不，从全国范围来看，如果共和党试图在得克萨斯州、北卡罗来纳州和密苏里州窃取席位，那么竞争本就不公平。因此，我想对那些批评我们做法的人说，我们当时应该怎么做？什么都不做吗？就任由他们操纵选举、窃取席位，而我们只是被动应对，尽力让选举体系尽可能恢复公平。这就是我们目前所做的全部事情，这是临时措施，而且公民也有权对此投赞成票或反对票。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 我不必向您解释操纵选区划分的弊端，因为您多年来一直在谈论这个问题。我们回顾了您的一些言论。您曾说过，操纵选区划分会催生无法反映美国民众政策诉求的政府。2019年您还说过，这会导致政治僵局，缺乏妥协，因为它迎合的是政党的极端立场。您说过，我不会支持民主党操纵选区划分。那么实际上，您现在不正是在支持所有这些做法吗？情况如何才能好转？民众如何才能达成妥协？
霍尔德： 我们必须先解决当前摆在我们面前的这场由共和党制造的危机。等我们度过这场危机之后，才能回到我自2017年以来一直在争取的公平选举的目标上来。但如果我们想要实现公平选举的目标，就必须现在就拯救我们的民主制度。我这么说并非危言耸听，如果我们不对他们的所作所为做出回应，我们可能会失去民主，也就再也没有机会争取公平选举了。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 最高法院支持了得克萨斯州的相关做法。
霍尔德： 没错。最高法院不仅支持了得克萨斯州的做法，也支持了加州的做法。最高法院——
玛格丽特·布伦南： 但您仍然认为这本质上是违法的——
霍尔德： 我认为这是不合适的。希望下次我们能有一位民主党总统，并且同时控制参众两院，届时我希望我们能通过联邦立法，彻底禁止党派操纵选区划分，一劳永逸地解决这个问题。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 那么即便这是一项短期措施，弗吉尼亚州仍有一些人担心近期会出现什么情况。菲利普·汤普森曾发表过一篇专栏文章，我不知道您有没有看过。他是全国黑人无党派选区重划组织的执行主任，他专门针对弗吉尼亚州指出，重新划分的地图未能巩固黑人的政治影响力，尽管黑人选民是弗吉尼亚州民主党领导层和投票基础的重要组成部分。他提出了这样一个问题：这对我们有什么好处？如果您需要调动民众的积极性、鼓励他们投票，您会如何回应这类质疑？
霍尔德： 这种说法完全不符合事实。完全是错误的。我想问问这位先生，您认为再经历两年不受制约的特朗普政府，对美国的非裔美国人来说是最有利的吗？不。答案显然是否定的，绝对是否定的。因此，我们不能再仅仅从弗吉尼亚州的局部视角来看待这个问题，而要看到全国范围内正在发生的事情，以及在弗吉尼亚州投下赞成票将有助于——有助于制衡特朗普政府一直在推行的政策。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 霍尔德先生，非常感谢您抽出时间接受采访。
霍尔德： 谢谢你们邀请我。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 我们稍后回来。
Transcript: Former U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan,” April 19, 2026
2026-04-19T13:51:13-0400 / CBS News
April 19, 2026 / 1:51 PM EDT / CBS News
The following is the transcript of the interview with Obama administration Attorney General Eric Holder that aired on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” on April 19, 2026.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: We’re joined now by Eric Holder, who served as Attorney General under former President Obama. Good to have you here.
FMR. ATTORNEY GENERAL ERIC HOLDER: Good to be here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you’ve been working on redistricting. You’re chairman of the National Democratic Redistricting Committee. Voters out in Virginia are set to make this decision about redrawing districts in a way that would advantage Democrats. As I understand it, it’s not just you. It’s former President Obama, it’s the Governor of Virginia, all pushing for this, saying that this gerrymandering will restore fairness. But how is drawing a map along partisan lines- How is that not just stacking the deck? How is that about fairness?
HOLDER: We have to look at this in its totality. This is really a national fight. It’s not a fight only about Virginia. And when the President told Governor Abbott in Texas, I needed five additional seats in the House of Representatives, there had to be a response to that. And the governor in California decided, all right, we’ll put- we’ll ask the people of California, do you want to respond to what has happened in Texas? We’re asking the people of Virginia, do you want to respond to what’s happened, not only in Texas, but in Missouri as well, and in North Carolina as well. And what we’re trying to do is come up with a system whereby the people actually decide what’s the composition of the House of Representatives so that it can be an effective check on this president. So, what Virginia is doing, what California did is only in response to that which Republicans started in Texas.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But in Virginia, there already was a bipartisan commission that was set up to do these things. I mean, that sounds fair, bipartisan commission. So, by holding this referendum and changing the map, I know you said that this is just a temporary measure. How do you guarantee that this is temporary and that this doesn’t keep happening?
HOLDER: Well, the measure itself says that it is- it is time limited. It is only for this cycle, an additional cycle, and after the census–
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, that could be changed again.
HOLDER: No, well, no, that’s nothing that we would be pushing. We need to deal with the crisis that we have right now, come up with a way in which we deal with that crisis, and then get back to the redistricting commissions in California and in Virginia. And one thing I think it’s really important to understand is that the people have the ability to make this decision in Virginia, as they did in California, as opposed to–
MARGARET BRENNAN: Because they have a referendum–
HOLDER: –as opposed to it being imposed upon them in Texas and in Missouri and in North Carolina, which proved to be wildly unpopular, but Republican politicians ignored the will of the people in those states and put in place these mechanisms.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But if we put this another way, I mean, look at all the headwinds the president’s party is facing right now. We’ve been talking about the war and the energy costs that go along with it. Historically, the president’s party doesn’t usually do well in the midterm races. So why do Democrats need to do this? I mean, it sounds like it’s acknowledging that the Democratic Party can’t win on its own, that it has to go through these measures.
HOLDER: The Democrats can certainly win if it’s a fair fight. And the question I have–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –It wasn’t going to be a fair fight in Virginia?
HOLDER: No, it wasn’t going to be a fair fight nationally, if you try to steal seats in Texas, in North Carolina and in Missouri. And so the question I have for people who are critical of that which we’re doing, is, what were we supposed to do? Nothing? just allow them to try to stack the deck, to try to steal seats, and all we’re trying to do is meet them and try to make the system as fair as it possibly can be. And that’s all that this is about, and it’s temporary, and it is also something that the citizens have the ability to say yes or no to.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, I don’t have to explain to you the negative parts of gerrymandering, because you have talked about it for years and years. I mean, we looked back at some of your quotes. You said it puts in place governments that don’t reflect the policy desires of the American people. In 2019 you said it leads to gridlock. It leads to lack of compromise because it caters to the extremes of the party. You said, I don’t stand for gerrymandering for Democrats. So practically speaking, aren’t you endorsing all these things now? I mean, how does the situation get better? How do people lead to compromise now?
HOLDER: Well, we have to deal with this crisis that is in front of us and that the Republicans put before the nation. Once we get past this crisis, we can get back to that which I’ve been fighting for since 2017 which is fairness. But we have to, if we want to get to that fairness fight, we have to save our democracy now. And I’m not being hyperbolic or alarmist, if we don’t respond to that which they are trying to do, we could lose our democracy and not have the ability to get back to that fairness fight.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The Supreme Court upheld the actions in Texas.
HOLDER: Right. The Supreme Court upheld the actions in Texas, as well as in California. Supreme Court–
MARGARET BRENNAN: But you still think it’s illegal, basically–
HOLDER: I think it’s inappropriate, and hopefully the next time we have a new Democratic president and control both the House and the Senate, I hope we’ll pass federal legislation that will ban partisan gerrymandering just outright and get away- just do away with this altogether.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So even if this is a short-term measure, there are some specifically in the state of Virginia, who have concerns about what- what happens near term? There was an op-ed written by Philip Thompson. I’m not sure if you saw it. He’s the Executive Director of the National Black Nonpartisan Redistricting Organization, and he said that, specific to Virginia, the redrawn map fails to consolidate black political influence despite the fact that black voters form a critical component of the Democratic leadership and voting bloc in Virginia. And he raises this question, what’s in this for us? If you need to get people out there excited and voting, how do you respond to something like that?
HOLDER: That’s simply untrue. That is simply untrue. And what I would ask, whoever that gentleman is, do you think that another two years of unchecked Trump power is in the best interest of African Americans in this nation? No. The answer to that is clearly, clearly no. And so, we have to look at this, not again, only on a Virginia scale, but what is going on nationally, and the impact of having a positive vote in Virginia will be to put in place- help put in place a check on that which the Trump administration has been doing.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mr. Holder, thank you so much for your time.
HOLDER: Thanks for having me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ll be back in a moment.