2026-05-31T12:41:50-0400 / 哥伦比亚广播公司新闻
以下为前副总统迈克·彭斯于2026年5月31日在《与玛格丽特·布伦南面对面》栏目中接受采访的文字实录。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 欢迎回到《面对面》。今天我们邀请到前副总统迈克·彭斯，他刚刚出版了新书《保守主义者的信仰：重新发现保守主义良知》。早安，副总统先生。
迈克·彭斯： 早上好，玛格丽特。很高兴见到你。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 显然你认为共和党需要一些提醒，你在书中写道，美国人对保守主义的内涵感到困惑。你还说，对许多右翼民粹主义者而言，不满情绪主导了政策制定。你这里指的是谁或是什么？
迈克·彭斯： 嗯，我认为，在我成年后的所有岁月里，共和党一直以致力于保守主义议程而闻名：美国作为自由世界的领袖、有限政府、自由市场经济，以及传统道德价值观，尤其是生命权。我很自豪地说，从里根政府到首届特朗普政府，我们都是按照这一议程执政的，但我之所以写下《保守主义者的信仰》，是因为就在过去四五年里，出现了我所称的民粹主义右翼势力，他们更关注我们反对什么，而非我们支持什么，更关注不满情绪，而非积极的保守主义议程。保守主义运动一直以来都在政治上与进步左翼对抗，但现在民粹主义右翼构成了新的威胁：他们在海外奉行孤立主义政策，在国内支持大政府和保护主义，边缘化生命权议题。随着今年秋季选举和2028年大选的临近，我认为我们作为一个政党和一场运动，有必要花点时间回顾一下我们的信仰。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 但你描述的这些情况，并非仅存在于党内边缘群体，而是身为共和党领袖的美国总统。你在书中写道，他并非始终以保守主义者的身份执政，我知道总统的整体支持率很低，确实如此。但他目前似乎牢牢掌控着共和党。那么，你如何能重振他所反对的那部分阵营？你刚才也提到了生命权议题就是其中之一。你曾公开与他分道扬镳，认为他在这一议题上背弃了保守主义立场，你还认为他在财政支出以及处理部分自由市场问题的方式上也有同样问题。
迈克·彭斯： 嗯，听着，第二届特朗普政府有很多举措是正确的。他们在经历了美国历史上最严重的边境危机后， secured the border（注：原文此处为“secured the border”，直译为“加固边境”，结合语境译为“筑牢边境防线”更符合中文新闻表达）。他们全面延长了我们当年通过的特朗普-彭斯减税政策。他们毫无歉意地支持我们珍视的盟友以色列，并直接向伊朗开战。但在其他方面，你可以看到总统及其身边人士对民粹主义右翼政治的接受和追随：对信用卡和药品实施价格管制，将美国企业国有化，当然还有对盟友和对手普遍征收关税，再加上边缘化生命权议题，对拜登政府推动的通过邮寄方式广泛分发堕胎药物一事无所作为，以及对乌克兰援助时断时续。尽管他们在以色列和伊朗问题上立场坚定，但对乌克兰援助的时断时续，更多反映的是进步左翼的政治诉求和绥靖政策，而非我们党在国内外一贯秉持的保守主义议程。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 那为什么共和党没有人站出来反对他呢？
迈克·彭斯： 嗯，听着，我要向总统表达所有应有的敬意——（插话）
玛格丽特·布伦南： 你们在众议院和参议院都拥有多数席位，但他们却相当沉默。
迈克·彭斯： 他在共和党初选选民中赢得了极高的忠诚度。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 初选选民。
迈克·彭斯： 我们在德克萨斯州、路易斯安那州，还有我们印第安纳州最近的州参议院选举中都看到了这一点。我认为这是因为，进步左翼基本上已经掌控美国政坛约100年了。罗纳德·里根开启了反击之路。我认为共和党选民真的很欣赏特朗普总统对抗激进左翼的方式，并且他仍在继续这样做。但我想让我们的选民知道，民粹主义右翼正发起新的攻势，随着中期选举和2028年大选的到来，我认为我们必须聚焦于我们支持什么，因为这不仅是共和党赢得选举的议程，玛格丽特，我相信它还能为美国人民带来自由和繁荣。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 好吧，当你谈到初选选民时，你知道那不一定代表所有共和党选民。你刚才提到的德克萨斯州选举的投票率就足以说明这一点，但难道共和党不是从总统本人到各级官员，都在通过推动选区重划来锁定只会进一步助长党内极端民粹主义势力的变革吗？
迈克·彭斯： 嗯，民主党人自己在选区重划问题上“五十步笑百步”，这太可笑了。美国有一些州——
玛格丽特·布伦南： 当然，但选区重划难道不会削弱两党合作的动力吗？
迈克·彭斯： 但美国有一些州，共和党选民占比40%，但国会中却没有一名共和党议员来自这些州。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 所以你支持选区重划？（插话）
迈克·彭斯： 我从来都不支持党派性的选区重划，但听着，我对美国人民和共和党选民充满信心。我认为，如果我们高举美国在世界舞台上的领导地位、有限政府、自由市场经济以及传统价值观和生命权的旗帜，我相信选民会在今年的中期选举和2028年大选中支持我们的事业。届时我们将决定，是进步左翼及其对社会主义的拥抱继续掌控全国政坛，还是民粹主义右翼——这其实是一种进步政治——取而代之。我的意思是，看看他们对孤立主义、保护主义、企业国有化以及价值观边缘化的支持，这越来越像是左翼政策的翻版。我想，正如里根总统多年前所说，共和党应该提供选择，而非回声。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 但副总统JD·万斯不就是这些论调的翻版吗？如果特朗普总统算不上保守主义者，那JD·万斯是吗？
迈克·彭斯： 嗯，听着，我都数不清特朗普总统纠正过我多少次，当我说某个立场是保守主义立场时。事实上，他自己也说过他不是保守主义者，他从来没有真正声称自己是。我不太清楚这位副总统的观点和他的政府哲学，但正如我在书中所写的，共和党内部出现了新的紧张关系：有人试图将特朗普总统所支持的民粹主义右翼议程，打造成共和党的新方向。我认为这对共和党不利，对国家更不利——这个国家需要一个充满活力、强大的保守主义政党，致力于自由、自由市场和传统价值观。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 说到中期选举，你在书中也花了大量篇幅谈论品格，你说品格很重要。上周，德克萨斯州共和党人投票提名了肯·帕克斯顿，你应该能预料到这一点。他是现任州检察长，曾被共和党控制的众议院弹劾，面临多项滥用职权的指控，包括受贿。他的妻子是该州现任参议员，以“宗教理由”起诉他通奸并提出离婚。他还在2015年因证券欺诈指控被起诉，尽管这些指控后来被撤销。而总统选择了他，而非你口中更加保守的约翰·科宁。肯·帕克斯顿的品格是否代表了你们的政党？
迈克·彭斯： 嗯，正如我在书中所写的，品格和坚守原则的正直，对我们的运动和国家都至关重要。但当我看待德克萨斯州的初选，以及路易斯安那州、肯塔基州、印第安纳州的众多州参议院选举时，我认为这更多反映了特朗普总统对共和党初选选民的掌控——这些选民感激他挺身而出对抗激进左翼。看看今天的民主党，我的意思是，令人惊讶的是，共和党在一定程度上因接受民粹主义右翼而迷失了方向，而民主党则彻底转向了社会主义候选人与社会主义政策。我认为共和党选民——
玛格丽特·布伦南： 所以你会与肯·帕克斯顿划清界限，认为他并不代表保守主义价值观？
迈克·彭斯： 共和党选民想要反击。他们尊重总统的观点。我只是想确保人们明白，在今年的所有选举中，共和党内部出现了一股新的势力，我认为我们必须回归那些一直以来让我们国家和政党强大繁荣的核心价值观和原则。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 好吧，路易斯安那州参议员比尔·卡西迪的“罪状”，是在1月6日国会山遇袭后的第二次弹劾审判中投票支持定罪特朗普。总统甚至会基于1月6日的不满情绪来决定初选支持对象，这难道不让你担忧吗？
迈克·彭斯： 嗯，我不太清楚总统做出这种选择的具体原因——
玛格丽特·布伦南： 他的推文说得相当明确。
迈克·彭斯： 他确实是这么做的。你知道，我们有一段时间没聊天了，但没错，老实说，我永远不会淡化1月6日发生的事情，我始终坚信，承蒙上帝恩典，我们那天履行了对宪法规定的和平权力交接程序的责任。这也是为什么所谓的“武器化基金”——也就是设立一项基金，用来补偿当天袭击警察、破坏国会大厦的人——的想法完全不可接受。我希望本届政府能放弃这个想法，彻底打消这个念头。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 你认为参议院共和党人会迫使他们放弃这个想法，因为很难违抗总统。正如你刚才所说，许多共和党人都因为初选和中期选举的压力而不敢站出来。
迈克·彭斯： 确实如此，但令我感到鼓舞的是，参议院中有不少共和党人已经公开表态反对这项基金。听着，那些在1月6日袭击警察、破坏国会大厦的人，不应该从这项基金或任何其他地方获得一分钱纳税人的钱。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 但就算只是设立这项基金的先例，难道不应该将1月6日的袭击者排除在外吗？设立“武器化基金”本身就有其值得审视的地方，但我还想明确问你另一件事。
迈克·彭斯： 在华盛顿，我们不需要用贪污基金来解决案件。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 你认为这是一项贪污基金。
迈克·彭斯： 有一个支持生命权的家庭， literally run over by the Biden Department of Justice（注：原文此处为“literally run over by the Biden Department of Justice”，直译为“被拜登司法部彻底碾压”，结合语境译为“遭到拜登司法部的无情打压”更符合中文表达），他们获得了七位数的和解金。司法部可以在人们的权利受到践踏时解决这些问题，也应该这么做。我非常欢迎这项和解。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 上周，应司法部的要求，联邦上诉法院推翻了极右翼极端组织“誓言守护者”四名成员的定罪，该组织是参与1月6日国会山事件的民兵组织。你认为特朗普政府是在故意美化那一天的事件吗？
迈克·彭斯： 嗯，我确实看到了相关证据，尤其是在1月6日周年纪念日那天，白宫发布了一份时间线，竟然将当天的骚乱归咎于国会山警察，这让我感到非常愤怒。听着，我非常相信未来历史会对我们的角色做出评判，会对所有在国会山警察确保国会安全后返回现场的共和党人和民主党人做出评判，我们所有人都履行了宪法赋予我们的责任。但显然，有人企图改写那段历史，但我预计这不会得逞。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 副总统先生。非常感谢你分享你的想法。也很高兴你能来到我们的演播室现场。
迈克·彭斯： 谢谢你，玛格丽特。感谢邀请。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 我们稍后回来。
Transcript: Former Vice President Mike Pence on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan,” May 31, 2026
2026-05-31T12:41:50-0400 / CBS News
The following is the transcript of the interview with former Vice President Mike Pence that aired on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” on May 31, 2026.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to Face the Nation. We are joined now by former Vice President Mike Pence, who has a new book, What Conservatives Believe: Rediscovering the Conservative Conscience. Good morning to you, Mr. Vice President.
MIKE PENCE: Good morning, Margaret. Good to see you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You clearly think your party needs some reminders here, and you write that Americans are confused about what it means to be a conservative. You say for many right-wing populists, grievance dictates policy. Who or what are you thinking about there?
MIKE PENCE: Well, I think, look, from all of my adult life, the Republican Party has been defined by a commitment to a conservative agenda to America as leader of the free world, to limited government, free market, economics, and traditional moral values, especially the right to life. And I’m proud to say that from the Reagan administration to the first Trump administration, we governed on that agenda, but I wrote “What Conservatives Believe,” because just in the last four or five years, there’s been a rise of what I call the populist right that focuses more on what we’re against than what we’re for, focuses more on grievance than a positive conservative agenda. I mean the conservative movement has always been battling politically with the progressive left, but now there’s a new threat from the populist right that would embrace policies of isolationism abroad, that would embrace big government and protectionism at home, marginalize the right to life, and as we go into this fall’s elections and go into 2028 I thought it was important that we take a moment as a party and as a movement to remind ourselves what we believe.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But some of what you are describing isn’t just on the fringes or within the party, it’s the President of the United States who’s leader of that party, and you write he has not always governed as a conservative, I understand that the president’s overall approval rating is low. It is. But he still seems to have this vice grip on the neck of the Republican party right now. So, how can you revive a portion of it that he is in opposition to? I mean, right to life was one of them, as you just detailed. You split with him very publicly on that. You think he betrayed it. You think he betrayed on, for example, spending and the way he’s dealing with some of the free market issues.
MIKE PENCE: Well, look, I think the second Trump administration has got a lot right. They got the border secured after the worst border crisis in American history. They extended those Trump-Pence tax cuts that we passed in their entirety. They’ve stood without apology for our cherished ally, Israel, and took the fight directly to Iran. But on other instances, you’ve seen the impact and the embrace by the President and people around him of the politics of the populist right, the price controls on credit cards and pharmaceuticals, nationalization of American businesses, of course, broad-based tariffs on friend and foe alike, add to that marginalizing the right to life, doing nothing about the broad distribution of the abortion pill by mail that Joe Biden’s administration made possible, and then the stops and starts on Ukraine, while they’ve been strong on Israel, strong with Iran. The stops and starts reflect more the politics of the progressive left and appeasement than that time-honored conservative agenda that’s defined our party at home and abroad.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Why isn’t the party standing up to him then?
MIKE PENCE: Well, look, I give the president all kinds of credit (CROSSTALK)
MARGARET BRENNAN: You’ve got majorities in the house and the Senate. They’re been pretty silent.
MIKE PENCE: He has earned great loyalty among Republican primary voters.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Primary voters.
MIKE PENCE: We saw that in Texas, we saw that in Louisiana, we saw that in Indiana in our recent state senate primaries, and I think it’s because look, the progressive left has been essentially in the saddle for about 100 years in this country. Ronald Reagan began the battle back. I think Republican voters truly appreciate the way that President Trump has fought back against the radical left and continues to, but I want our voters to know that there’s, there is this new push from the populist right, and as we look at the midterm elections, as we look at 2028 I think it’s important that we focus on on what we’re for, because not only is it a winning agenda for Republicans, Margaret, I, I believe it’s delivered freedom and prosperity for the American people.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, when you say primary voters, you know that that is not necessarily all Republican voters. Certainly, you just look at the turnouts in that Texas race to speak to that, but isn’t your party, from the president on down, with this gerrymandering push locking in the changes that will only. Feed into that more extreme part of the party. The populist—
MIKE PENCE: Well you know, it’s awfully hard for Democrats to throw stones when they live in glass houses on gerrymandering. There are states around the country that—
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sure but doesn’t gerrymandering disincentivize bipartisan.
MIKE PENCE: There are states around the country, though, where 40% of voters are Republicans, and there are no republican representatives from those states in the Congress.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you support the gerrymandering? (CROSSTALK)
MIKE PENCE: I’ve never been a fan of partisan gerrymandering, but look, I have great confidence in the American people and in Republican voters. I think if we hold the banner of American leadership on the world stage of limited government free market economics of traditional values in the right to life high. I think voters will rally to our cause in these midterms and in 2028 when we’re going to decide whether the progressive left with its embrace of socialism is in the lead on the national stage or whether a populist right that, that is a form of progressive politics. I mean, this is when you look at the embrace of isolationism, protectionism, nationalization of companies, and marginalizing values. It’s, it is, it’s more and more an echo of what the left has provided. I think, as President Reagan said years ago, the Republican Party ought to offer a choice, not an echo.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But isn’t the Vice President, JD Vance, an echo of all of those things? If President Trump’s not a conservative, is JD Vance one?
MIKE PENCE: Well, look, let me say, I lost count of the number of times President Trump corrected me when I said that a particular position was conservative. In fact, he said himself he’s not a conservative, he’s never really claimed to be. I’m less clear about the vice president’s views and his philosophy of government, but I’m very clear, as I wrote in my book, that there is this new tension within the Republican party that will take those pieces of the agenda, the populist right agenda that President Trump has embraced, and try and make that the new direction of the Republican party. I think that’d be bad for the Republican party. I think it’d be worse for the country that needs a vigorous, strong conservative party committed to freedom, committed to free markets, committed to traditional values.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Talking about the midterms, you also spent a lot of time writing about character, and you say it matters. Last week, Texas Republicans voted to make you know this is coming, Ken Paxton, their nominee. He’s the current AG, he was impeached by the Republican-controlled House, multiple charges of abuse there, including bribery. His wife, a sitting senator in that state, accused him of committing adultery and is divorcing him on quote “biblical grounds.” He was indicted in 2015 on securities fraud charges, though those charges were dropped, and the president chose him over a much more conservative in your description, John Cornyn. Does character represent—does the character of Ken Paxton represent your party?
MIKE PENCE: Well I think, as I write in my book, I think character, integrity to principle, are enormously important in the life of our movement, in the life of our nation. But when I look at the Texas primary, when I look at Louisiana, Kentucky, Indiana’s many state senate races, I see it more as a reflection of the grip that President Trump has on Republican primary voters who are grateful for the way that he has stood up and fought against the radical left. You look at where the Democratic Party is today. I mean, it’s amazing to see if Republicans, in part, have lost our way with the embrace of the populist right. Democrats have gone over the beam with embracing socialist candidates, socialist policies. I think Republican voters—
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you would separate yourself from Ken Paxton. He does not represent conservative values—
MIKE PENCE: Republican voters want to push back on that. They respect the president’s views. I just want to make sure people understand that as we sort through all these elections this year, that there’s a new force afoot in the Republican party, and I think we’ve got to get back to those core values and principles that have always made our country and our party strong and prosperous.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, Louisiana Senator Bill Cassidy, his offense to President Trump seemed to be that vote to convict him in the second impeachment trial following the attack on the Capitol on January 6. Does it trouble you that the president is even making primary choices based on grievances having to do from January 6?
MIKE PENCE: Well, I don’t know precisely what the president’s reasons were for weighing in
MARGARET BRENNAN: He tweeted pretty explicitly.
MIKE PENCE: The way that he did. So you know we have, we haven’t chatted in a while, but yeah, I, you know, I’ll be honest with you, that I’ll never minimize what happened on January 6, and I’ll always believe, by God’s grace, we did our duty that day to the seat of the peaceful transfer of power under the Constitution. It’s one of the reasons why this talk of a weaponization fund, Margaret, the idea of creating a fund that could compensate people who assaulted police officers and vandalized the Capitol that day is totally unacceptable. My hope is the administration will drop it, drop the idea entirely.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You think Senate Republicans will make them drop it, because it’s hard to stand up to the President. Many Republicans find, because of what you just said. Those primaries and those midterms.
MIKE PENCE: It is, but I’ve been heartened by the number of Republicans in the Senate who have spoken out against it, look, that people that assaulted police officers on January 6 and vandalized our capital should not get one dime of taxpayer money from that fund or anywhere else.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But I mean, even just the precedent of setting it up, should they exclude January 6 attackers? That the idea of a weaponization fund is its own thing that it bears examining, but I want to explicitly ask you about something also that happened.
MIKE PENCE: In Washington, we don’t need slush funds to settle cases.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You view it as a slush fund.
MIKE PENCE: There was a pro-life family that was literally run over by the Biden Department of Justice, that it was just a seven figure settlement for them. The DOJ can settle these issues where people have had their rights trampled on and ought to do that. I welcome that settlement greatly.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Last week, at the request of the Department of Justice, a federal appeals court threw out the convictions of four members of far-right extremist group the Oath Keepers, that was a militia involved in January 6. Do you think that the Trump administration is deliberately whitewashing that day?
MIKE PENCE: Well, I’ve certainly seen evidence of that, particularly I was offended on the anniversary of January 6 when the White House put out a timeline that literally blamed Capitol Hill police for the riot that took place that day. Look, I’m very confident that of the judgment of history in the years ahead about our role, about all the Republicans and Democrats who returned that day after Capitol Police secured the Capitol, and we all did our duty under the Constitution, but, but there’s clearly been an effort by some to rewrite that history, but I don’t expect it’ll work.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mr. Vice President. Thank you very much for sharing your reflections. It’s good to have you here in person too.
MIKE PENCE: Thank you, Margaret. Appreciate it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ll be right back.
发表回复