2026-05-03T19:00:13-0400 / https://www.cbsnews.com/news/some-white-nationalists-swoop-in-after-natural-disasters-60-minutes-transcript/
今年4月，多场龙卷风席卷美国大片区域，所过之处一片狼藉。短短几周内，全美20多个州遭遇了超过200场密集的龙卷风袭击。而飓风季也即将到来。
我们今晚的报道聚焦于自然灾害发生后的情况。近年来，已经出现了一种固定模式：民兵组织、阴谋论者和白人至上主义者会前往受灾严重的社区——就像上周在得克萨斯州那样——提供援助。但他们被称为“灾难游客”，其目的是散布对政府的质疑、洗白自身形象并拉拢追随者。
2024年9月，飓风海伦强势横扫北卡罗来纳州，威力之强几乎将蝙蝠洞镇从地图上抹去，房屋被卷走，树木被连根拔起。
洛厄尔·格里芬警长：想象一下，把一盒牙签倒在厨房的台面上。
洛厄尔·格里芬警长当时面临着艰巨的救援任务。
洛厄尔·格里芬警长：我们已经经历了数日的暴雨。接着飓风又接踵而至。
莱斯利·斯塔尔：这简直是祸不单行。
洛厄尔·格里芬警长：没错，没错。
洛厄尔·格里芬警长与莱斯利·斯塔尔 接受《60分钟》采访
然而，更大的麻烦接踵而至：外部人员开始涌入北卡罗来纳州，其中包括大量反政府的极右翼团体。
洛厄尔·格里芬警长：我们所说的这些人，属于少数派。但少数派也可能制造混乱。而我们遇到的正是这种情况。
莱斯利·斯塔尔：这些外部人员中有一些开展了自主救援行动吗？
洛厄尔·格里芬警长：确实有一些人以民兵的身份前来，想要接管局面，在他们看来，要为该地区带来他们自行部署的“法律与秩序”。
莱斯利·斯塔尔：带着武器？
洛厄尔·格里芬警长：是的，女士。
莱斯利·斯塔尔：那这就意味着你们原本用于真正救援的时间，要被分散出来应对他们？
洛厄尔·格里芬警长：确实如此。没错。
警长本人并没有接触到所有团体，但我们可以确认，到场的人员中包括白人至上主义团体“活跃俱乐部”的成员。
罗伯特·伦多：参与灾难救援就是在直接帮助我们的同胞。
莱斯利·斯塔尔：你们是去帮助白人的。
罗伯特·伦多：是的。
罗伯特·伦多于2020年联合创立了“活跃俱乐部”，为心怀不满的年轻白人男性提供一起健身、同时交流意识形态的场所。
该组织目前拥有近90个分支，被监测机构称为美国发展最快的白人至上主义网络之一，其立场反犹太、反移民、反民主。他们还会举办混合 martial arts 赛事。
罗伯特·伦多：我们和兄弟们聚在一起，拳击、外出旅行。
莱斯利·斯塔尔：你觉得这很有趣吗？
罗伯特·伦多：当然。你知道，法西斯主义也有乐趣可言。
“法西斯主义也有乐趣？”
罗伯特·伦多 接受《60分钟》采访
罗伯特·伦多：我是一名民族主义者。
莱斯利·斯塔尔：这是什么意思？
罗伯特·伦多：民族主义者？
莱斯利·斯塔尔：是的。
罗伯特·伦多：意思是我将自己的族群放在首位。
莱斯利·斯塔尔：你会说自己是白人至上主义者吗？
罗伯特·伦多：不会。我认为那有点像是诽谤性的说法。
莱斯利·斯塔尔：但“我们的族群”指的是白人，欧洲白人。
罗伯特·伦多：没错。而且有很多组织是为其他族群服务的，对吧？如果我们不为自己着想，还有谁会呢？
莱斯利·斯塔尔：我知道你们组织去过洪灾、火灾、飓风的灾区。但如果你们遇到的不是白人，却因为洪水受灾，你会怎么做？
罗伯特·伦多：比如说有个被困在火里的人，我会给他水吗？当然会。我可能会给他一些水。
莱斯利·斯塔尔：你们进入这些地区的时候，是在招募成员吗？
罗伯特·伦多：我们会分发传单，你懂的。如果有人之后想联系我们，没问题。但仅仅是我们的出现，就会改变某些人的看法，扭转他们的想法。下次当他们听到有人说“那些邪恶的家伙”时，他们会说：“等等，那就是那个在我家着火时赶来帮忙的人。”
正如其中一则帖子所说，这些外部团体中的许多人想要建立一个“支持白人的平行体系”。在北卡罗来纳州现身的知名白人至上主义团体之一是“爱国者阵线”，他们砍伐树木、分发面包。
但西部州中心（一个仇恨团体监测组织）的弗雷迪·克鲁兹表示，这些白人至上主义者前往灾区主要是为了拉拢追随者。
弗雷迪·克鲁兹 接受《60分钟》采访
莱斯利·斯塔尔：这些人前来，分发饮用水、帮忙清理废墟。无论他们的意识形态是什么，他们毕竟在做一些积极的事，不是吗？
弗雷迪·克鲁兹：我们实际看到的情况是，这些团体到场后会制作大量社交媒体内容。我们称之为“灾难旅游”。
莱斯利·斯塔尔：然后他们就离开了？
弗雷迪·克鲁兹：我们看到的通常都是这样。
这与“退伍军人救援团”或“撒玛利亚会”这类宗教组织不同，后者会在灾后与当地当局协调合作，并停留一段时间开展工作。
莱斯利·斯塔尔：你们进入受灾地区时，会与当地执法部门、警长进行任何协调吗？
罗伯特·伦多：绝对不会。他们可能会想尽一切办法阻止我们。
莱斯利·斯塔尔：有人批评说，你们前来的目的就是拍摄分发饮用水的视频，然后离开，本质上就是为了获取这些视频素材用于发布。对此你怎么看？
罗伯特·伦多：这听起来就像——所有人都这么做，对吧？就像总统……他前往社区时也有摄像机在场。那瓶水确实被递出去了吗？当然递了。我们的队员确实关心并同情他们帮助的人，这一点也是肯定的。但我们也会拍摄视频并发布，来展现我们的另一面，这同样是肯定的。
这些极端组织会在洪灾期间、火灾期间发布视频。他们发现，关于自然灾害的视频能够吸引全新的大量受众。
约翰·凯利：我认为白人至上主义者对自然灾害感兴趣，是因为所有人都对自然灾害感兴趣。
约翰·凯利领导着一家分析网络内容传播的机构Graphika。
约翰·凯利 接受《60分钟》采访
约翰·凯利：几乎没有什么事情能让公众的注意力同时集中在一件事上，而自然灾害就是其中之一。
莱斯利·斯塔尔：这些团体借助自然灾害试图改变自身形象，他们想说“我们是正派的”。
约翰·凯利：这正是当前这些团体的特点之一：他们决定将更具煽动性的标志性符号藏起来，尝试吸引更主流的受众。不再做那些会让人反感的事，比如举着纳粹旗帜游行就会让人反感。
罗伯特·伦多：很多主流媒体描绘我们时，总喜欢展示一个穿着迷彩服、戴着卡车司机帽、可能还超重、脸上有纹身之类的家伙。我想要做的是为像我这样的年轻人塑造正面形象。
罗伯特·伦多认为，这种更具男子气概的正派形象，能让年轻男性心甘情愿接受他的法西斯主义理念。另一位吸引年轻男性的人物是网红丹·比尔泽里安，他在Instagram上拥有近3000万粉丝。他宣扬反犹太主义：
丹·比尔泽里安：我认为犹太至上主义是美国面临的最大威胁，我认为这也是当今世界面临的最大威胁。我真心这么认为。
其中一些观点正在渗透到主流政治领域：比尔泽里安正在佛罗里达州竞选国会议员。在一个群聊中，年轻的共和党领导人称赞希特勒。还有更直言不讳的网络仇恨煽动者尼克·富恩特斯：
尼克·富恩特斯：我一直在想，希特勒哪里帅了？为什么大家都觉得他酷？因为孩子们喜欢希特勒。孩子们喜欢希特勒，年轻男性们。
尽管越来越多人公开宣扬这些观点，但“活跃俱乐部”的年轻成员在发布自然灾害相关照片时，都会遮住自己的脸。
伦多是该组织的发言人，尽管他本人从未去过灾区。过去几年里，他可以说是“销声匿迹”了。
莱斯利·斯塔尔：你为什么进过监狱？
罗伯特·伦多：哪一次？
莱斯利·斯塔尔：哦，天呐。
罗伯特·伦多：我进过两次监狱。
这位来自纽约的36岁男子第一次入狱是在青少年时期，因帮派斗殴。
莱斯利·斯塔尔：你捅过人吗？
罗伯特·伦多：据称是。嗯，没错。你懂的。
莱斯利·斯塔尔：是吗？
罗伯特·伦多：好吧，他也带了武器。又不是我随便跑到某个人面前……你懂的，我不是随机袭击别人的。
莱斯利·斯塔尔：那第二次呢？
罗伯特·伦多：第二次是我最出名的那次事件。
2017年，他在集会上与反对特朗普的抗议者发生了一系列斗殴。视频里的他一拳又一拳地挥拳。当时他正在逃亡，这时他萌生了创立一个形象更清爽的白人骄傲组织的想法。但这不过是换了个新包装。
罗伯特·伦多：我们是极端民族主义者、极右翼分子、法西斯主义者。你懂的，我的意思是，我会稍微使用这些标签，你懂的。
莱斯利·斯塔尔：你的最终目标是把美国变成一个完全由白人基督徒组成的国家吗？
罗伯特·伦多：我还要补充一点，比如变成一个更军事化的国家。你懂的，军事统治。
莱斯利·斯塔尔：也就是让军人来管理国家？
罗伯特·伦多：嗯，再说一遍——
莱斯利·斯塔尔：并且不要民主？
罗伯特·伦多：——更基于……民主。
莱斯利·斯塔尔：你说的民主是什么意思？还有——民主很糟糕？
罗伯特·伦多：哦，因为它太……太像一场骗局了，“民主”。我是这么认为的。政客们被游说，他们从不顾及民众的利益。任何重要的事情，他们会征询我们的意见吗？不会。
莱斯利·斯塔尔：但如果由军人掌权，你们永远都无法做决定——他们会做决定——
罗伯特·伦多：我们现在什么都决定不了。
参与飓风海伦这类自然灾害的救援，也给这些团体提供了抨击政府的机会。
他们在视频中声称政府在救援工作中表现糟糕，称救援工作混乱、无能且腐败。
这些批评吸引了更多外部人员涌入。这些来自弗吉尼亚州的民兵前来清理房屋。
弗吉尼亚州民兵：当政府失灵时，民众会团结起来。
亚利桑那州的一个私刑式阴谋论团体“巡逻退伍军人”前来组织物资供应，但据执法部门称，他们制造了混乱，弊大于利。
北卡罗来纳州的格里菲斯警长表示，这些“灾难游客”中的许多人散布阴谋论和虚假信息，以帮助他们的视频病毒式传播。
洛厄尔·格里芬警长：虚假信息让本已糟糕的局势变得更加复杂，雪上加霜。
莱斯利·斯塔尔：但警长，他们前来是因为他们认为政府什么都没做。
洛厄尔·格里芬警长：所以我想说，所有这些真正想要帮忙的外部人士，他们应该从官方渠道获取信息，而不是从TikTok、Facebook或者当下流行的社交媒体上获取。
莱斯利·斯塔尔：当时传播的虚假信息有哪些？
洛厄尔·格里芬警长：说还有人被困，说有尸体漂浮在河里。说联邦紧急事务管理局（FEMA）在 ration 物资并没收物资。这些都不是真的。
联邦紧急事务管理局——在自然灾害现场开展工作的联邦机构——是这些外部团体的主要攻击目标。在飓风海伦期间，由于担心民兵前来“猎杀”救援人员，FEMA的救援人员不得不撤离了几天。还有一个离谱的谣言称，政府实际上利用气象监测塔作为气象武器制造了飓风海伦。
洛厄尔·格里芬警长：所以，基本上，谣言说政府控制天气，这次袭击是针对该地区的直接攻击。
莱斯利·斯塔尔：现在的灾难现场，出现这些虚假谣言、阴谋论，还有外部团体涌入让执法工作更加困难，这已经成为常态了吗？
洛厄尔·格里芬警长：恐怕根据我的所见所闻，这将会成为新常态。
_制作：沙哈尔·巴-昂、金索尔·荣。广播助理：阿里亚·恩。剪辑：乔·尚策。**
Some white nationalists swoop in after natural disasters, trying to soften their image while offering help
2026-05-03T19:00:13-0400 / https://www.cbsnews.com/news/some-white-nationalists-swoop-in-after-natural-disasters-60-minutes-transcript/
A surge of tornados tore across a large swath of the country in April, carving a path of destruction. Over 200 tornados hit over 20 states, closely clustered in the last couple of weeks. And hurricane season is just around the corner.
Our story tonight is about what happens after these natural disasters. A pattern has emerged in recent years in which militias, conspiracists, and white supremacists show up to hard-hit communities — as they did last week in Texas — offering help. But they’ve been called disaster tourists who are out to sow doubt in government, soften their own image and gain followers.
September 2024. Hurricane Helene barreled through North Carolina with forces so powerful, it nearly wiped the town of Bat Cave off the map, lifting homes and toppling trees.
Sheriff Lowell Griffin: Imagine taking a box of toothpicks and dumpin’ ’em on your kitchen counter.
Sheriff Lowell Griffin faced a daunting rescue task.
Sheriff Lowell Griffin: We had already experienced days of heavy rain. And then the hurricane comes through.
Lesley Stahl: Like a triple whammy.
Sheriff Lowell Griffin: Yes, yes.
Sheriff Lowell Griffin and Lesley Stahl 60 Minutes
Then, another whammy: outsiders started pouring into North Carolina, including an influx of anti-government, far-right groups.
Sheriff Lowell Griffin: These folks that we’re talking about, they were in the minority. However that minority can create chaos. And that’s what we ran into.
Lesley Stahl: Did some of these outsiders launch their own rescue operations?
Sheriff Lowell Griffin: We had some folks wanting to act as a militia comin’ in to take over, to in their minds bring some sort of self-deployed law and order to the area.
Lesley Stahl: With weapons?
Sheriff Lowell Griffin: Yes, ma’am.
Lesley Stahl: So that’s like taking your time from the real rescue to deal with them?
Sheriff Lowell Griffin: It is. It is.
The sheriff himself didn’t see all the groups, but we know among those to show up were members of white nationalist group “Active Club.”
Robert Rundo: Going to a disaster relief is directly helping our people.
Lesley Stahl: You go in to help white people.
Robert Rundo: Yeah.
Robert Rundo co-founded Active Club in 2020 as a place for disgruntled, young white men to work out together, while sharing their ideology.
With nearly 90 chapters, it’s been described by watchdogs as one of the country’s fastest growing white supremacist networks, that are antisemitic, anti-immigrant, and anti-democracy. They also hold mixed martial arts tournaments.
Robert Rundo: We get together with the boys. We box, we travel.
Lesley Stahl: Do you think of it as fun?
Robert Rundo: Of course. You know, there’s fun in fascism.
“Fun in fascism?”
Robert Rundo 60 Minutes
Robert Rundo: I’m a nationalist.
Lesley Stahl: What does that mean?
Robert Rundo: A nationalist?
Lesley Stahl: Yeah.
Robert Rundo: It means I put my people first.
Lesley Stahl: Would you say “white supremacist?”
Robert Rundo: No. I think that’s like a slander-ish term.
Lesley Stahl: But “My people” are white people. European white people.
Robert Rundo: Right. And there’s plenty of organizations that are geared towards other ethnic groups, right If we don’t look out for ourselves, who is?
Lesley Stahl: I know that your organization has gone to floods, fires, hurricanes. What if you came upon someone who wasn’t white, but is suffering because of the flood?
Robert Rundo: Like if there was, like, a guy in a fire, would I give him water? Yeah. I’d probably give him some water.
Lesley Stahl: When you go into these areas, are you recruiting?
Robert Rundo: We hand out flyers, you know. If somebody wants to contact us later, that’s fine. But just us showing up changes somebody’s opinion, someone’s mind so the next time when they put something out and they say “These evil guys,” they say “Wait a second. That’s the guy who came when my house was on fire and helped me out.”
Many of these outside groups want to build, as one of their posts states, “a pro-white parallel system.” One of the more prominent white supremacist groups that showed up in North Carolina was Patriot Front. They cut down trees and handed out bread.
But Freddy Cruz from the Western States Center, a hate-group watchdog, says these white nationalists go to disasters primarily to build a following.
Freddy Cruz 60 Minutes
Lesley Stahl: These people come in, they hand out water, they help clean up the debris. Whatever their ideology, they’re doing something positive, aren’t they?
Freddy Cruz: What we’re seeing is actually these groups will show up and generate a whole bunch of social media content. We’re dubbing it disaster tourism.
Lesley Stahl: And then they leave?
Freddy Cruz: That’s generally what we see.
That’s unlike veterans’ relief groups like Team Rubicon or religious organizations like Samaritans’ Purse that come in after disasters, coordinate with authorities, and stay a while.
Lesley Stahl: When you go into an area that’s distressed, do you coordinate in any way with the local law enforcement, with the sheriff?
Robert Rundo: Absolutely not. They would probably do everything they can to prevent us.
Lesley Stahl: What do you say to people who argue that you go in, the purpose is to have some video shot of you handing out some water and then you leave and the whole point was for– to get that video so that you could post it.
Robert Rundo: That kinda sounds like—what everyone does, right? That’s what a president.. that when he goes into a community they have the cameras there. So is that bottle of water actually being handed out? Absolutely it is. Does our guys actually care and feel for the people they’re helping out. Absolutely. Do we also video it and put it out there to show another side of us? Absolutely.
These extremist groups put out videos after floods, they put out videos during fires. They figured out that videos about natural disasters can reach a whole new large audience.
John Kelly: I think white nationalists are interested in natural disasters because everybody is interested in natural disasters.
John Kelly heads Graphika, a firm analyzing how content spreads online.
John Kelly 60 Minutes
John Kelly: There are very few things that bring the public’s attention to focus on one thing in unison. And natural disasters is one of those.
Lesley Stahl: These groups through natural disasters are trying to change their image. They trying to say, “we’re wholesome.”
John Kelly: That’s one of the things that characterizes the current groups, is that they’ve kind of decided to leave the more triggering iconography in the closet and try to appeal to a more mainstream audience. Not to do things that turn people off, the way that marching around with swastikas would turn people off.
Robert Rundo: A lot of mainstream media, how they depict us, they like to show a guy who’s in camo, trucker hat, maybe overweight, face tattoos, something like this. What I wanted to do was to create something positive for young guys like myself.
The more macho wholesome image, Robert Rundo thinks, gives young men permission to adopt his fascist philosophy. Another guy who appeals to young men is online influencer Dan Bilzerian – with nearly 30 million followers on Instagram. He peddles antisemitism:
Dan Bilzerian: I believe that Jewish supremacy is the greatest threat to America and I think it’s the greatest threat to the world today. I truly believe that.
Some of these ideas are seeping into mainstream politics: Bilzerian is running for Congress in Florida. In a group chat, young Republican leaders praised Hitler. And then there’s Nick Fuentes, the online hate-monger, who’s even more explicit:
Nick Fuentes: And I was thinking, what is it about Hitler that’s cool? Why does it tickle? Cause kids love Hitler. Kids love Hitler. Young men.
While more people are advocating these ideas in the open, the young men of Active Club hide their faces when they post pictures from natural disasters.
Rundo is their spokesman, even though he himself hasn’t gone to disasters. For the past few years – he was out of pocket, so-to-speak.
Lesley Stahl: Why were you in prison?
Robert Rundo: Which time?
Lesley Stahl: Oh, boy.
Robert Rundo: I was in prison twice.
The 36-year-old from New York was first incarcerated as a teen, for a gang fight.
Lesley Stahl: Did you stab somebody?
Robert Rundo: Allegedly. Well, yeah. You know?
Lesley Stahl: Yeah?
Robert Rundo: Well, he had a weapon too. It wasn’t like I just— you know, I just randomly showed up on somebody.
Lesley Stahl: And the second time?
Robert Rundo: The second time is for what I’m most known for.
In 2017, he got into a series of fights with anti-Trump protestors at rallies. That’s him pounding. and pounding. He was on the lam when he got this idea to launch a more clean-cut white pride group. But it’s just a new image.
Robert Rundo: We’re ultra-nationalists, far right, fascists. You know? I mean, I’ll lean a little bit into these terms, you know.
Lesley Stahl: Is your ultimate goal to turn America into a completely white Christian nation?
Robert Rundo: I would also add, like, a more militant nation as well. You know? Military rule.
Lesley Stahl: Like having a military person run the country?
Robert Rundo: Well, just, you know, again–
Lesley Stahl: And not have democracy?
Robert Rundo: –based more of– of– democracy.
Lesley Stahl: What did– what did you mean democracy? And like– it’s terrible?
Robert Rundo: Oh, because it’s just such a– It’s such a scam, “democracy.” I believe. It’s politicians that get lobbied, they never have the interest. Anything that’s important, do they ever ask us? No.
Lesley Stahl: But if you have a military – you’ll never decide anything. They’ll decide–
Robert Rundo: We don’t decide anything right now.
Going to natural disasters like Hurricane Helene also gives these groups an opportunity to slam the government.
Their videos claimed the government did a lousy job in the rescue, saying it was chaotic, clueless, and corrupt.
The criticisms got more outsiders to descend. These militiamen from Virginia came to clear houses.
Virginia militia: When the government fails, the people come together.
An Arizona vigilante conspiracist group, Veterans on Patrol, came to organize supplies, but according to law enforcement they created chaos and did more harm than good.
Sheriff Griffin in North Carolina says many of these disaster tourists spread conspiracies and misinformation to help their videos go viral.
Sheriff Lowell Griffin: The misinformation took a bad situation and actually complicated a bad, bad situation.
Lesley Stahl: But sheriff, they’re coming in because they think the government isn’t doing anything.
Sheriff Lowell Griffin: So what I would say, for all these outside folks that are really wanting to help, they need to get their information from official sources, and not from TikTok or Facebook or whatever the flavor of the day is with social media.
Lesley Stahl: What was some of the misinformation that was being spread?
Sheriff Lowell Griffin: That there were people that were still stranded, that there were bodies floating in the river. That FEMA was rationing supplies and seizing supplies. None of that was true.
FEMA – the federal agency on the ground at natural disasters – is a main target of these outside groups. During Helene, FEMA rescuers had to back away for a few days when there were fears that militias were coming to hunt them. Also, a wild rumor spread that the government actually created Hurricane Helene using weather monitoring towers as a weather weapon.
Sheriff Lowell Griffin: So, basically, the rumor was that, you know, the government controls the weather and that this was a direct attack on the area.
Lesley Stahl: Is this usual now in disasters, 1) that there are these false rumors, conspiracies being spread, and 2) that outside groups sort of stream in and make it more difficult for law enforcement?
Sheriff Lowell Griffin: So what I’m afraid of is from what I’ve seen, this will be the new normal.
Produced by Shachar Bar-On and Jinsol Jung. Broadcast associate, Aria Een. Edited by Joe Schanzer.
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