录音文字：众议员吉姆·希姆斯做客《与玛格丽特·布伦南一同面对全国》节目，2026年6月7日
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2026-06-07T11:08:07-0400 / 哥伦比亚广播公司新闻
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以下是康涅狄格州民主党众议员吉姆·希姆斯的采访实录，该采访于2026年6月7日在《与玛格丽特·布伦南一同面对全国》节目中播出。
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玛格丽特·布伦南： 我们现在请来情报委员会最高民主党议员、众议员吉姆·希姆斯，他今天上午从康涅狄格州格林威治 joins 我们。欢迎再次来到《面对全国》。
众议员吉姆·希姆斯： 很高兴能和你连线，玛格丽特。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 国会议员，特朗普总统任命联邦住房金融局局长比尔·普尔特尔出任下一任国家情报总监。总统表示这是临时任命，但即便担任代理职务，他也可以留任超过200天，而且这将绕过国会批准。普尔特尔本人曾在参议院获得确认，担任住房部门职务。有三名民主党议员投了赞成票。你知道他是否拥有开展情报工作所需的安全许可吗？
众议员希姆斯： 嗯，这是一个非常具体的问题，玛格丽特。我听一位参议员说过他没有安全许可，但这几乎无关紧要，对吧？他没有一丁点国家安全方面的经验，而总统却要把他安排到这个最敏感的岗位上。你也提到了，他之前是被任命到那个相对冷门的联邦住房金融局职位的。那是在他利用该职位试图打击总统的政治敌人亚当·希夫和莱蒂西亚·詹姆斯之前。所以现在我们对比尔·普尔特尔有了更多了解，此事之所以如此具有争议性，原因就在于我们知道这就是他的标志性特征：他会竭尽所能去做他认为符合总统政治利益的事。情报界的权力和资源绝不能交到一个来到华盛顿的唯一目的就是为总统处理政治私事的人手中。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 好吧，总统确实说过他希望普尔特尔更多地调查2020年大选。在这种情况下，国会有办法阻止他就任这一职务吗？
众议员希姆斯： 嗯，你还没提到这一点，但你应该知道，普尔特尔的提名已经引发了两党愤慨。你也看到了我的共和党同僚们的公开评论。总统在我们最重要同时也极具争议的情报收集权限——也就是《外国情报监控法》第702条——到期前10天做出了这项任命。我的意思是，我刚听到沃纳参议员将其形容为向一个极其微妙的局面投掷手榴弹。所以，不，国会能做些什么来阻止这一切吗？其实不能，但总统通过这项任命无疑让这个最重要的情报收集工具陷入了险境。当下伊朗正考虑在海外开展行动，或许就在美国境内，你根本想不出比这更糟糕的时机了，这恐怕是我见过的情报界最糟糕的任命。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 好吧，这项授权本身就充满争议。甚至在比尔·普尔特尔被选中之前，你就一直在努力说服两党议员延长该授权。我们知道，昨天参议院情报委员会和司法委员会的共和党主席致信白宫，称本周晚些时候可能会出现外国情报收集工作中断的情况。那么你们该如何应对？听起来你们似乎在为这个关键的监控工具可能无法继续使用做准备，而你也说过这个工具非常重要。
众议员希姆斯： 是的，我看到了汤姆·科顿和查克·格拉斯利的来信。在某种程度上，他们是在承认现实：普尔特尔的任命已经让第702条的重新授权无从谈起。你知道，我们在众议院投票通过了一项法案，有42名民主党议员支持它。但我可以告诉你，其中至少有一半人现在会改变立场，因为他们会说：“说实话，我从一开始就对这项授权不太放心”。我们不必深究它为何有争议，但它确实存在争议。而比尔·普尔特尔，大家都知道，他完全热衷于滥用职权，所以我不会支持这项法案。你也看到了，昨天参议院未能推进重新授权程序。所以这里唯一正确的解决方案，玛格丽特，唯一正确的方案，尽管我对此不太抱希望，就是总统承认“哎呀，这是个错误”，撤回对比尔·普尔特尔的任命，转而任命一个不仅能让民主党人，还能让所有人都更放心的人——一个有相关经验、不会滥用情报权力的人。这是摆脱当前困境的唯一办法，而特朗普总统现在就能做到这一点。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 好吧，听起来你是说民主党人会暂缓投赞成票，直到普尔特尔的人选尘埃落定。正如你所知，总统往往不会让步。白宫方面，还有几天前刚在国会山露面的马可·卢比奥，有没有以任何方式与民主党合作，寻找比尔·普尔特尔之外的可接受替代人选？
众议员希姆斯： 嗯，请记住两点。第一，我所在的众议院已经通过了《外国情报监控法》重新授权法案。所以你问的这个问题其实应该问参议院。我猜参议院可以直接——
玛格丽特·布伦南： 没错，但你说过这正是当前的阻碍，对吧？
众议员希姆斯： 没错，参议院需要通过一项法案，或者通过众议院已经通过的法案。我的意思是，众议院已经通过了法案。顺便说一句，如果现在必须对比尔·普尔特尔的情况再通过一项法案，我认为我们做不到。但你问的是马可·卢比奥是否在和民主党合作寻找替代普尔特尔的人选——
玛格丽特·布伦南： 我知道。
众议员希姆斯： ——这不是这么运作的，对吧？总统需要清醒过来，意识到这项任命可以说是他所有糟糕任命里最糟糕、最危险的一个。所以，我希望他能找到解决办法，因为你说得对，他不喜欢让步，但他也不会喜欢在没有第702条授权的情况下发生恐怖袭击。你看，汤姆·科顿可以随便说这是民主党人的问题，但比尔·普尔特尔的任命确实遭到了两党强烈反对。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 是的，但明确一下，你的意思是参议院必须就众议院提交的法案进行投票。如果他们做出任何修改，在普尔特尔仍在任的情况下，你还会投票支持《外国情报监控法》重新授权吗？
众议员希姆斯： 那么唯一的办法就是——众议院通过了一项法案，有42名民主党议员支持，但现在情况已经不同了。所以你知道，我想——
玛格丽特·布伦南： 你这次会投反对票吗？
众议员希姆斯： ——我认为这不可能实现。我是说，再说一遍，主动权在参议院手里。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 没错。
众议员希姆斯： 众议院已经通过了法案。我认为，听着，如果让我再次就这项法案投票，考虑到比尔·普尔特尔的背景经历和他在那个冷门联邦机构的所作所为，我觉得我早上都没法对着镜子问自己：“是的，这家伙应该有权控制和使用这项情报权力”。而且，我认为很多民主党人和共和党人都会有同样的想法。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 我联系你本来是想在比尔·普尔特尔引发这场争议之前，和你谈谈乌克兰问题。你刚去过那里，会见了泽连斯基总统。就在过去几天里，乌克兰发动了一些深入境内的打击，袭击了距离本土约600英里的圣彼得堡。你如何评价当前这场战争的局势？俄罗斯还在占据上风吗？
众议员希姆斯： 不，俄罗斯没有占据上风，这就是核心事实。无论从哪个标准来看，乌克兰现在都在取胜。从净结果来看，前线阵地虽然偶尔会有几平方英里的得失，但总体而言，乌克兰正在收复领土。乌克兰给俄罗斯造成了令人难以置信的人员伤亡。每推进一平方英里，俄罗斯就要损失250到300名士兵。俄罗斯的月伤亡人数大约有3万人，这太惊人了。对俄罗斯来说，这就相当于每两个月就打一场越南战争。正如你指出的，乌克兰现在能够深入俄罗斯境内发动打击，这已经损害了俄罗斯约30%的炼油产能。所以毫无疑问，乌克兰正在赢得这场战争。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 关于以色列和伊朗，《纽约时报》和另一家电视网络都有报道称，美国已经提高了针对以色列的反情报威胁级别。有具体细节称以色列在监视美国官员。这一说法准确吗？美国是否提高了针对以色列的反情报威胁等级？
众议员希姆斯： 是的，我不能就我们在反情报方面的具体行动置评，但值得反思的是，当前美国和以色列的政策出现了分歧。我没有参加那次电话会议，所以无法证实媒体报道的内容是否属实，但媒体确实报道过特朗普总统在电话里对内塔尼亚胡总理爆粗口，因为总统当然非常希望这场冲突早日结束。他清楚汽油价格每上涨1.5美元会对他和他所在政党的政治前途产生怎样的影响。所以，你知道，以色列虽然是我们的盟友，但它不是“五眼联盟”成员国，我们之间有互不监视对方的协议之类的安排。所以，再次说明，我不能回答你的问题——
玛格丽特·布伦南： 好的。
众议员希姆斯： ——但你知道，此时此刻，总统和以色列领导人之间存在分歧。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 好吧，我们会继续追踪这一事件。吉姆·希姆斯，感谢你今天上午抽出时间接受采访。《面对全国》节目稍后马上回来，请继续收看。
Transcript: Rep. Jim Himes on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan,” June 7, 2026
2026-06-07T11:08:07-0400 / CBS News
The following is the transcript of the interview with Rep. Jim Himes, Democrat of Connecticut, that aired on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” on June 7, 2026.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: We turn now to the top Democrat on the Intelligence Committee, Representative Jim Himes, who joins us this morning from Greenwich, Connecticut. Welcome back to Face the Nation.
REP. JIM HIMES: Good to be with you, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Congressman, President Trump appointed the Federal Housing Finance Agency head, Bill Pulte, to be the next Director of National Intelligence. The President said it is temporary, but even in that acting role, he could stay in it for over 200 days, and it would bypass Congressional approval. Pulte himself was Senate-confirmed for the housing job. Three Democrats voted for him. Do you know if he has a security clearance to do the intelligence work?
REP. HIMES: Well, that’s a very narrow question, Margaret. I have heard a- a senator said that he did not have a security clearance, but that’s almost beside the point, right? He doesn’t have an iota of national security experience, and the president is putting him in this most sensitive of roles, and you know, you pointed out that he was confirmed for the sort of obscure Federal Housing Finance Agency job. This was before he used that job to try to go after the president’s political enemies, Adam Schiff and Letitia James. And so now we’ve got a little bit more data on Bill Pu- Bill Pulte, and the reason this is so controversial is that we know that’s his distinguishing feature. He’s going to do whatever it is that he believes is in the president’s political interest, and there is no way that the authorities and assets of the intelligence community can be in the hands of an individual who has showed that his sole reason for being in Washington is to do the president’s political laundry.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, the president did say he wants Pulte to find out more about the 2020 election. At this point, is there anything Congress can do to stop him from taking on this role?
REP. HIMES: Well, you know, you haven’t asked about it, but you know this Pulte nomination, which, by the way, created bipartisan outrage. You saw the public commentary from my Republican colleagues. The president did this 10 days before the expiration of our most important and also very controversial collection authority, that’s FISA 702, right? I mean, I just heard Senator Warner describe it as throwing a grenade into a very, very delicate situation, and so, no, can- I mean, can Congress do anything to stop this? Not really, but the President is doubt assured through this appointment that the single most important intelligence collection tool, at a time when the Iranians are, you know, thinking about conducting operations abroad, maybe in the United States, I mean, you just could not have come up with worse timing for what is probably the worst appointment into the intelligence community I’ve ever seen.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, this was a controversial authorization. You’ve been working really hard on trying to convince both Democrats and Republicans to extend it, even before Bill Pulte was chosen. We know yesterday, the Republican chairs of Senate Intel and Judiciary sent a letter to the White House saying expect a lapse in the collection of foreign intelligence later this week. So, how do you get around this? Because it sounds like there is planning for this key surveillance tool you say is so important to just not be in place.
REP. HIMES: Yeah, no, I saw the letter from Tom Cotton and Chuck Grassley, and look, I think at one level they’re acknowledging reality, which is that the Pulte appointment has taken 702 reauthorization off the table. You know, we voted in the House and passed a bill with 42 Democrats. I will tell you that at least half of those Democrats are gone, because they will say, ‘look, I- I wasn’t very comfortable with this authority to begin with,’ and we don’t need to get into why it’s controversial, but it is controversial, but with Bill Pulte, who is, you know, absolutely dedicated to abusing authorities, no, I’m not there. And so you saw in the Senate yesterday a failure to proceed on a reauthorization. So the only right answer here, Margaret, the only right answer, and I don’t have a lot of confidence that it’s going to happen, is that the President says, you know, ‘oops, that was a mistake,’ and pulls the Bill Pulte appointment in favor of somebody who will give not just Democrats, but everybody more confidence that this is somebody with some experience who won’t abuse intelligence authorities. That’s the only way out of this mess, and you know President Trump could do that right now.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, it sounds like you’re saying Democrats are going to withhold their votes until Pulte’s selection is polled. The President often doesn’t back down, as you know. Is- is the White House, is Marco Rubio, who was up on Capitol Hill just a few days ago, working in any way with Democrats to find an acceptable alternative here to Bill Pulte?
REP. HIMES: Well, remember two things. Number one, where I work in the House of Representatives, we already passed the FISA reauthorization bill. So the question you ask is really a question for the Senate. I guess the Senate could just–
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right, but this is the thing standing in the way you’re saying, right?
REP. HIMES: It’s well- the Senate needs to pass a bill or pass the House bill, right. My point is that the House already passed a bill. Now, by the way, if we had to pass another bill in the context of Bill Pulte, I don’t think we could, but you know it’s not Marco Rubio. You said, is Marco Rubio working with Democrats to find an alternative to Bill Pulte–
MARGARET BRENNAN: I know.
REP. HIMES: –that’s- that’s not the way this works, right? The President needs to sober up and realize that this appointment is arguably in the- in the, you know, you know, basket of awful appointments he has made, this is probably the worst and most dangerous. So, I mean, I hope he can find a way out, because you’re right, he doesn’t like to back down, but he’s also not going to like the terrorist attacks that might happen if there is no 702 collection authority, because look, you know, Tom Cotton can try to say that this is a Democratic issue all he wants, but the Bill Pulte appointment was, you know, panned in a- in a strong bipartisan way.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yeah, but just to be clear, you’re saying that the Senate has to vote on the bill that the House sent up. If they make any changes, would you still vote for FISA reauthorization if Pulte is in the spot?
REP. HIMES: So the only way, so the House passed a bill, 42 Democrats supported it, that would not be true today, so you know, I suppose–
MARGARET BRENNAN: You would hold your breath this time around?
REP. HIMES: –I don’t think it can happen. Ive- well, well, again, it’s this, it’s- the ball is in the Senate’s court.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
REP. HIMES: The House passed it. I don’t think, look, if I had to vote again on this thing, knowing Bill Pulte’s background experience and what he’s done in this obscure federal agency, I don’t think I could look myself in the mirror in the morning and say, yeah, this is a guy who should, you know, have control and access to this authority. And look, I think- I think there’s lots of Democrats and Republicans who feel that way.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I reached out to you wanting to also speak to you about Ukraine before this controversy erupted here with Bill Pulte. You were just there, you were meeting with President Zelenskyy. Just in the past few days, Ukraine has carried out some very deep strikes. St. Petersburg, some, what 600 miles into Russian territory. How do you judge where the war is at this moment in time? Is Russia still winning?
REP. HIMES: No, Russia is not winning, and I mean that’s the headline, right? Ukraine is now winning by any standard, right? On a- on a net basis, you know, the front lines are moving a couple of square miles here or there, but on a net basis, the Ukrainians are now retaking territory. The Ukrainians are inflicting a mind-boggling number of deaths on the Russians. You know, for every square mile that the Russians move, they’re giving 250, 300 Russian men in fatalities. You know, the Russian casualties are like 30,000 a month. It’s just staggering. I mean, it’s like a- it’s like a Vietnam every two months for the Russians there, and as you pointed out, the Ukrainians are now striking deep into Russian territory in a way that has compromised, you know, 30% or so of their ref- of the Russian refining capacity. So make no mistake, the Ukrainians are winning this war.
MARGARET BRENNAN: On Israel and Iran, there is some reporting, both in the New York Times and another television network, that the U.S. has increased its counterintelligence threat against Israel. Some specifics there about them spying on American officials. Is that accurate? Has the U.S. raised its counterintelligence threat level against Israel?
REP. HIMES: Yeah, I- I can’t really comment on what we’re doing with respect to counter intelligence, but it is worth reflecting on the fact that you see a divergence now between U.S. policy and Israeli policy. I wasn’t on the phone call, so I can’t validate that it happened the way it was reported in the press, but of course the press reported that President Trump was screaming obscenities into the phone at the- at Prime Minister Netanyahu, because the President, of course, is very motivated to get this conflict over. He knows the effect of $1.50 increase in gas prices on his political fortunes and his party’s political fortunes. So, you know, we- Israel is not, though they are an ally, they are not a member of the Five Eyes agreement, in which we agree not to spy on each other, and that sort of thing. So, again, without answering your question, which I cannot do–
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yeah.
REP. HIMES: –you know this is a moment in time where the President is at odds with the Israeli leader.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, we will continue to track that story. Jim Himes, thank you for your time this morning. Face the Nation will be back in a minute. Stay with us.