2026-03-22T12:32:00-0400 / 哥伦比亚广播公司新闻
以下是2026年3月22日在《面对国家》节目中播出的对北约秘书长马克·吕特的采访实录。
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玛格丽特·布伦南：现在我们转向北约秘书长马克·吕特，他从荷兰海牙加入我们的节目。欢迎回到《面对国家》。
北约秘书长马克·吕特：玛格丽特，很高兴回到节目中。早上好。
玛格丽特·布伦南：早上好。我们看到伊朗向迭戈加西亚岛发射了两枚导弹。这个位于印度洋的岛屿是英美联合基地所在地。这次发射距离伊朗领土4000公里，是伊朗有史以来最远的一次。你刚刚听到沃尔茨大使提到，以色列和美国可能对伊朗的发射能力评估存在差异。但以色列称这些是能够击中柏林、巴黎和罗马的洲际弹道导弹。北约是否认同以色列的评估？
秘书长吕特：目前我们无法确认这一点，正在进行评估。但如果情况属实，这更证明总统采取的行动——削弱伊朗的弹道导弹能力和核能力——至关重要。正如沃尔茨大使刚才所说，我们从朝鲜问题中吸取了教训，如果谈判太久，可能会错过阻止其获得核能力的时机，而朝鲜现在已经拥有了核能力。如果伊朗同时拥有核能力和导弹能力，将对以色列、该地区、欧洲以及全球稳定构成直接且致命的威胁。因此，总统的行动至关重要。我看到民调显示，美国民众应该支持他，因为他在为世界安全而行动。
玛格丽特·布伦南：为了明确，在此时刻，你是否认为伊朗能够轰炸柏林、巴黎和罗马？它们都在直接威胁范围内吗？
秘书长吕特：我们确切知道的是，伊朗非常接近具备这种能力。关于迭戈加西亚的事件，我们仍在评估。如果属实，意味着他们已经具备该能力；如果不属实，我们也知道他们非常接近。这正是我在欧洲感受到的——大多数政治人物都对此表示共鸣。总统正在采取行动削弱伊朗的能力，使其无法再成为地区乃至全球的“混乱输出国”。
玛格丽特·布伦南：我相信总统会感谢你的支持，但他本周对北约和欧洲盟友表示了极大的不满，称北约是“没有美国的纸老虎”，并指责欧洲盟友抱怨油价高却不愿帮助开放霍尔木兹海峡，称他们是“懦夫”，“我们会记住的”。
秘书长吕特：我本周与总统进行了多次沟通。好消息是，美国几周来一直在为“史诗般的愤怒”行动做准备，出于安全考虑，他们无法向欧洲盟友及全球合作伙伴透露计划，否则会削弱首次打击的效果。因此，欧洲国家需要几周时间集结是合乎逻辑的。但现在，自周四以来，已有22个国家——包括大多数北约成员国，以及日本、韩国、澳大利亚、新西兰、巴林、阿联酋——联合起来回答三个问题：我们需要什么？何时需要？在哪里需要？这些问题正在被解决，以响应总统的呼吁，确保霍尔木兹海峡的自由航行。
玛格丽特·布伦南：总统称，这场行动将影响他对北约及欧洲的态度，甚至表示可能不再帮助欧洲。请听他的发言：
[唐纳德·特朗普 录音]
唐纳德·特朗普：我认为北约正在犯一个非常愚蠢的错误。我一直这么说，我想知道北约是否会在关键时刻支持我们。这是一次严峻考验，因为我们不需要他们，但他们本应在场。
[录音结束]
玛格丽特·布伦南：总统将此视为“等价交换”，并在同一语境中提及乌克兰问题，称“我帮助欧洲应对乌克兰，为什么他们不帮我？”你是否担心这会影响北约在其他地区的目标？
秘书长吕特：我知道北约总是能够团结起来。正是在特朗普总统的领导下，我们在海牙举行了极其成功的峰会，同意将国防开支占GDP的比例提高到5%，这是自艾森豪威尔时代以来首次实现欧美国防开支的平等。这一成就不仅因为公平——欧洲与美国的国防支出终于持平，这是特朗普（第45任）的愿望，而现在特朗普（第47任）实现了这一目标——更因为我们需要共同应对俄罗斯威胁及其他对手。在乌克兰问题上，美国提供了关键的情报支持和武器输送，欧洲国家与美国协作确保乌克兰对抗俄罗斯。至于伊朗，我完全理解总统的挫败感需要时间，但同时也希望欧洲盟友能理解，各国需要为此次行动做准备，现在我们已团结起来确保霍尔木兹海峡的安全。
玛格丽特·布伦南：但北约成员国称这是防御联盟而非进攻联盟，并未同意总统的要求。关于你提到的俄罗斯问题，欧洲理事会主席称美国解除对俄石油出口制裁“令人担忧”，影响欧洲安全。这是否会损害北约的其他目标？
秘书长吕特：北约始终是防御性联盟，但我们在面对伊朗威胁时，必须确保霍尔木兹海峡的自由航行安全，这是维护全球能源安全的关键。关于国防开支，欧洲国家已承诺将GDP的2%用于国防，北约国家在海牙峰会上达成一致，将国防开支提高到GDP的5%。这一决定不仅是为了应对俄罗斯，更是为了应对伊朗等其他威胁。我们在乌克兰问题上的协作也证明了这一点——美国持续提供情报和武器支持，欧洲盟友共同协助乌克兰抵抗俄罗斯。伊朗问题上，我相信总统的行动是必要的，而欧洲正在迅速响应，确保我们能够共同应对。
玛格丽特·布伦南：总统似乎认为，这场行动将超越伊朗，影响他对北约的态度及对欧洲的援助意愿。让我们听听他的发言：
[特朗普录音结束]
玛格丽特·布伦南：总统将此视为“等价交换”，并在同一语境中提及乌克兰问题，称“我帮助欧洲应对乌克兰，为什么他们不帮我？”你是否担心这会影响北约在其他地区的目标？
秘书长吕特：北约始终是防御性联盟，但我们在面对伊朗威胁时，必须确保霍尔木兹海峡的自由航行安全，这是维护全球能源安全的关键。关于国防开支，欧洲国家已承诺将GDP的2%用于国防，北约国家在海牙峰会上达成一致，将国防开支提高到GDP的5%。这一决定不仅是为了应对俄罗斯，更是为了应对伊朗等其他威胁。我们在乌克兰问题上的协作也证明了这一点——美国持续提供情报和武器支持，欧洲盟友共同协助乌克兰抵抗俄罗斯。伊朗问题上，我相信总统的行动是必要的，而欧洲正在迅速响应，确保我们能够共同应对。
玛格丽特·布伦南：但北约成员国称这是防御联盟而非进攻联盟，并未同意总统的要求。关于你提到的俄罗斯问题，欧洲理事会主席称美国解除对俄石油出口制裁“令人担忧”，影响欧洲安全。这是否会损害北约的其他目标？
秘书长吕特：北约始终是防御性联盟，但我们在面对伊朗威胁时，必须确保霍尔木兹海峡的自由航行安全，这是维护全球能源安全的关键。关于国防开支，欧洲国家已承诺将GDP的2%用于国防，北约国家在海牙峰会上达成一致，将国防开支提高到GDP的5%。这一决定不仅是为了应对俄罗斯，更是为了应对伊朗等其他威胁。我们在乌克兰问题上的协作也证明了这一点——美国持续提供情报和武器支持，欧洲盟友共同协助乌克兰抵抗俄罗斯。伊朗问题上，我相信总统的行动是必要的，而欧洲正在迅速响应，确保我们能够共同应对。
玛格丽特·布伦南：现在需要明确的是，我与一些北约成员国进行了沟通，他们称北约是防御性联盟，而非进攻性联盟，我们没有义务执行总统的要求。但你刚才提到俄罗斯问题，欧洲理事会主席称美国解除对俄石油出口制裁“令人担忧”，影响欧洲安全。这是否会损害北约的其他目标？
秘书长吕特：北约始终是防御性联盟，但我们在面对伊朗威胁时，必须确保霍尔木兹海峡的自由航行安全，这是维护全球能源安全的关键。关于国防开支，欧洲国家已承诺将GDP的2%用于国防，北约国家在海牙峰会上达成一致，将国防开支提高到GDP的5%。这一决定不仅是为了应对俄罗斯，更是为了应对伊朗等其他威胁。我们在乌克兰问题上的协作也证明了这一点——美国持续提供情报和武器支持，欧洲盟友共同协助乌克兰抵抗俄罗斯。伊朗问题上，我相信总统的行动是必要的，而欧洲正在迅速响应，确保我们能够共同应对。
玛格丽特·布伦南：我想明确的是，一些北约成员国称这是防御性联盟，并非进攻性联盟，我们没有义务执行总统的要求。但你刚才提到俄罗斯问题，欧洲理事会主席称美国解除对俄石油出口制裁“令人担忧”，影响欧洲安全。这是否会损害北约的其他目标？
秘书长吕特：北约始终是防御性联盟，但我们在面对伊朗威胁时，必须确保霍尔木兹海峡的自由航行安全，这是维护全球能源安全的关键。关于国防开支，欧洲国家已承诺将GDP的2%用于国防，北约国家在海牙峰会上达成一致，将国防开支提高到GDP的5%。这一决定不仅是为了应对俄罗斯，更是为了应对伊朗等其他威胁。我们在乌克兰问题上的协作也证明了这一点——美国持续提供情报和武器支持，欧洲盟友共同协助乌克兰抵抗俄罗斯。伊朗问题上，我相信总统的行动是必要的，而欧洲正在迅速响应，确保我们能够共同应对。
玛格丽特·布伦南：总统似乎认为，这场行动将超越伊朗，影响他对北约的态度及对欧洲的援助意愿。让我们听听他的发言：
[特朗普录音结束]
玛格丽特·布伦南：总统将此视为“等价交换”，并在同一语境中提及乌克兰问题，称“我帮助欧洲应对乌克兰，为什么他们不帮我？”你是否担心这会影响北约在其他地区的目标？
秘书长吕特：北约始终是防御性联盟，但我们在面对伊朗威胁时，必须确保霍尔木兹海峡的自由航行安全，这是维护全球能源安全的关键。关于国防开支，欧洲国家已承诺将GDP的2%用于国防，北约国家在海牙峰会上达成一致，将国防开支提高到GDP的5%。这一决定不仅是为了应对俄罗斯，更是为了应对伊朗等其他威胁。我们在乌克兰问题上的协作也证明了这一点——美国持续提供情报和武器支持，欧洲盟友共同协助乌克兰抵抗俄罗斯。伊朗问题上，我相信总统的行动是必要的，而欧洲正在迅速响应，确保我们能够共同应对。
玛格丽特·布伦南：我们将继续关注北约的反应及后续发展，感谢吕特秘书长的时间。稍后我们将继续报道更多内容，请继续关注。
Transcript: NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan,” March 22, 2026
2026-03-22T12:32:00-0400 / CBS News
The following is the transcript of the interview with NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte that aired on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” on March 22, 2026.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: We turn now to NATO Secretary General, Mark Rutte, who joins us this morning from The Hague in the Netherlands. Welcome back to ‘Face The Nation.’
NATO SECRETARY GENERAL MARK RUTTE: Margaret, good to be back on the program. Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Good morning. We did see that Iran fired two missiles at Diego Garcia. That’s that island in the Indian Ocean, which houses a U.S. UK joint base. That was 4000 kilometers from Iranian territory, furthest Iran has ever gone. You just heard Ambassador Waltz say there might be a difference there in how Israel and the U.S. assess that capability Iran has in terms of what they fired. But Israel says these were intercontinental ballistic missiles that could hit Berlin, Paris and Rome. Does NATO share that Israeli assessment?
SECRETARY GENERAL RUTTE: We cannot confirm that at the moment, so we’re looking into that. But if this would be true, it is the more evidence that what the President is doing here, taking out the ballistic missile capability, taking out the nuclear capability from Iran, is crucial. And exactly as the ambassador just said, Ambassador Waltz, we have seen with North Korea, if we negotiate for too long, you might pass the moment where you can still get this thing done, and North Korea now has the nuclear capability. If Iran would have the nuclear capability, including, together with the missile capability, it will be a direct threat, a existential threat, to Israel, to the region, to Europe, to the stability in the world. So the president doing this is crucial, and I’ve seen the polling, but I really hope the American people will be with him, because he is doing this to make the whole world safer.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So but just to be clear at this hour, do you believe that Iran could bomb Berlin, Paris and Rome? Are they all within direct threat range?
SECRETARY GENERAL RUTTE: What we know for sure is that they are very close to having that capability, whether this case with the UK base, Diego Garcia, we are still assessing. But if it is true, it means they already have that capability. If it is not true, we know they are very close to having that capability. And that is exactly why I feel in Europe, that most politicians, it resonates with them. What the President is doing here, which is taking out- degrading Iran’s capability to be, again, an exporter of chaos, sheer chaos to the region, to the world.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, I’m sure the president appreciates your praise, but he has been very frustrated, and made that clear this week with NATO and the European allies. He called NATO quote a paper tiger without the US. He said they complain about high oil prices when they forced to pay but they don’t want to help open the Strait of Hormuz. Easy for them cowards. We will remember.
SECRETARY GENERAL RUTTE: I’ve been in several conversations this week with the president, and the good news is that, look, we had the U.S. for weeks planning for Epic Fury and for reasons of security and safety, they could not share with European allies and allies around the world and partner countries what they were doing, because that would have jeopardized the effect of the first- first attack–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –Or it would have allowed you to plan
SECRETARY GENERAL RUTTE: So it is only logical that European countries needed a couple of weeks to come together. But at this moment, the good news is this, that since Thursday, 22 countries, most of them NATO, but also Japan, Korea, Australia, New Zealand, Bahrain, the UAE, have come together to basically answer three questions, what do we need? When do we need it? And where do we need it? These three questions are now worked through to answer the president’s call, to make sure that we secure the free sailing through the Strait of Hormuz.
MARGARET BRENNAN: To be clear, the president has said four to six weeks for this war, that would put us in early April for an end to combat operations. But then he’s also sending troops. He’s also possibly asking Congress for more money. What’s the when part? When did he tell you your support from these European countries will be needed because from the sources I speak to, they are not willing to send in the midst of combat.
SECRETARY GENERAL RUTTE: Obviously, I cannot in a program which is aired around the world, and you have a lot of viewers, discuss with you what is discussed in secrecy, but I can assure you that, of course, and the UK is- is at the forefront of leading this effort of the 22 countries on the leadership of Prime Minister Starmer. I’ve been in the phone call this week with Prime Minister Starmer and President Macron, and again, this has led to 22 countries now signing up to this initiative. And indeed, one of the key questions is not only the what question and the where question, but also the when question. And this is why military planners are now working together to make sure that we are ready, to make sure that that street- that Strait of Hormuz, that we secure the free sailing there, which is crucial for the world economy.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The president seemed to say, though, that this will go beyond Iran in terms of the impact on his thinking about NATO and his willingness to help Europe. Take a listen to this.
[DONALD TRUMP SOT]
DONALD TRUMP: I think NATO is making a very foolish mistake. And I’ve long said that, you know, I wonder whether or not NATO would ever be there for us. So this is a this was a great test, because we don’t need them, but they should have been there.
[END SOT]
MARGARET BRENNAN: The president continues to frame this as sort of like a quid pro quo, and he’s also mentioned Ukraine in the same context, saying, I help Europe with Ukraine. Why aren’t they helping me? Are you worried that this is going to hurt NATO’s goals elsewhere?
SECRETARY GENERAL RUTTE: What I know is that we always come together. It was under President Trump’s leadership that we had the extremely successful Summit in the Hague where we agreed to spend 5% of our GDPs on defense, and therefore equalizing for the first time since Eisenhower. So this is quite some time- some time back in history, equalizing what the Europeans are spending and what Americans are spending, not only because it is fair that we all spend the same, and this was a wish from Trump 45 and now is Trump 47 he got this done, but also because we need it, because of the Russian threat and our other adversaries. Then on Ukraine, it is again the U.S. providing critical intelligence support and weapons flow, working together with Europeans to secure Ukraine’s fight against the Russians, making sure they have what they need. And now with Iran, I’m absolutely convinced, and I understand the president’s frustration that it takes some time, but again, I also ask for some understanding, because nations had to prepare for this, not knowing and for good reasons about the initial attack on Iran, but now coming together to make sure that we can be able to secure the Strait of Hormuz.
MARGARET BRENNAN: No but to be clear, I’ve spoken to some NATO members who say this is a defensive alliance, not an offensive one. We didn’t sign up to go do what the president is asking us to do. But on the Russia point you just made, the European Council president said the U.S. decision to lift sanctions on Russian oil exports. Is very concerning as it impacts European security. This is part of what President Trump’s doing to try to stop the spike in oil prices here at home, the Treasury Secretary says this means about $2 billion is going to Russia now, President Zelenskyy says it’s more like 10 billion. Doesn’t this benefit Vladimir Putin?
SECRETARY GENERAL RUTTE: Well, this is the thing the president has to balance all these different interests. I know that he is with his team, with Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff and Marco Rubio. They are constantly working with the Ukrainians to put maximum pressure on the Russians to come to a deal. I know–
MARGARET BRENNAN: This isn’t maximum pressure.
SECRETARY GENERAL RUTTE: –I spoke an hour and a half with President Zelenskyy in London. He wants to get the deal done, and we have to make sure that we also take this to the Russians, to make sure that they are willing to play ball. It is the president putting that pressure together with the Europeans. But again, he has to balance all these different interests. So I’m not going to comment on each element of what is happening here, but his effort to bring the war in Ukraine to a successful end is crucial. He was the only one who was able to break the death lock with Putin when he made the first phone call in February last year, and he has consistently, with his team, done what is necessary to put that pressure, of course, on the Ukrainians, and they want to play ball. They show this. They want to end the war, and are also with the Russians.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, we’ll see if Vladimir Putin wants to play ball. Secretary General, thank you for your time, and we’ll be right back with a lot more ‘Face the Nation.’ Stay with us.
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