2026-03-29 / https://www.cbsnews.com/news/face-the-nation-full-transcript-03-29-2026/
在本期由玛格丽特·布伦南主持的《与玛格丽特·布伦南直面国家》节目中：
- 汤姆·霍曼，特朗普政府边境事务专员
- 康涅狄格州民主党众议员吉姆·海姆斯
- 杰罗姆·亚当斯，前美国卫生局局长
- 伊朗政策分析师卡里姆·萨贾德普尔，以及前中央司令部司令、CBS新闻特约撰稿人、退役将军弗兰克·麦肯齐
点击此处浏览2026年《与玛格丽特·布伦南直面国家》的完整文字实录。
玛格丽特·布伦南：我是华盛顿的玛格丽特·布伦南。
本周的《直面国家》节目中：白宫继续就对伊朗战争发出相互矛盾的信息，以及为何美国人越来越多地承受华盛顿的行动或不作为带来的冲击。
华盛顿的春天美不胜收，但国会已逃离这座城市，因为他们在国土安全部拨款问题上无法达成共识。特朗普总统表示，在达成协议之前，他将动用其他资金支付运输安全管理局（TSA）人员的工资。
但在参众两院接下来两周休会期间，这足以缓解美国一些最繁忙机场冗长的安检队伍吗？
美国人又要面临一个春假烦心事：因伊朗战争导致的汽油价格飙升，这场战争现已进入第二个月。冲突只会愈演愈烈，尽管总统坚称伊朗已被击溃，但美国的地面进攻准备正在加紧。
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唐纳德·特朗普（美国总统）：他们会告诉你，我们不会谈判。我们不会谈判。当然，他们在谈判。他们已经被击溃了。谁会不谈判？他们正恳求达成协议。
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玛格丽特·布伦南：对总统来说，这项协议来得越快越好，因为有令人担忧的迹象表明，战争导致整体经济疲软，甚至一些共和党人也在质疑他在中东的行动。
至于民主党人，周六数百万人在全国城市街头团结游行，这场运动可能会在中期选举中给共和党带来麻烦。
我们将与白宫边境事务专员汤姆·霍曼一同探讨国土安全部面临的挑战。此外，我们还将与众议院情报委员会首席民主党人吉姆·海姆斯对话，并请前卫生局局长杰罗姆·亚当斯医生谈谈麻疹的令人担忧的蔓延以及社交媒体对儿童的影响。
这些都将在《直面国家》节目中一一呈现。
早上好，欢迎收看《直面国家》。
今天是国土安全部部分停摆的第44天，创下历史最长停摆纪录。截至目前，已有至少500名TSA官员辞职，病假缺勤持续增加，尽管总统上周晚些时候签署的行政命令有望让官员们最早在明天拿到工资。
在拨款僵局方面，民主党人希望将移民海关执法局（ICE）改革和总统的驱逐政策纳入法案，之后才会同意全额拨款国土安全部。共和党人对此表示反对，而在国会接下来两周休会期间，这场对峙可能还会持续。
我们首先连线白宫边境事务专员汤姆·霍曼，今年早些时候明尼阿波利斯发生蕾妮·古德和亚历克斯·普雷蒂被杀事件后，总统指派他负责监督ICE的工作。
早上好，先生。
托马斯·霍曼（白宫边境事务专员）：早上好。
玛格丽特·布伦南：国会已经离开直到4月中旬。总统会迫使他们回来解决这个问题吗？
托马斯·霍曼：嗯，我希望如此。
他们必须——他们必须为国土安全部提供资金。再说一遍，我们谈论的是国土安全部。而由于当前世界局势，我们正处于更高的威胁态势中。我们必须保障国家的安全，这意味着我们必须为海岸警卫队、网络安全与基础设施安全局、特勤局以及国土安全部内的所有其他机构的人员提供资金。
我知道总统找到了支付TSA员工工资的办法，这样我们就能让公众顺利通过安检。他还提出了派遣ICE特工前往机场的想法，这已经产生了效果。所以我们只需要为该部门提供资金。他们想谈论——嗯，移民政策，我们可以谈。
但为什么要拿国土安全部的其他部门当人质来达成这个目的呢？坐下来谈谈吧。过去两周我一直在和他们沟通。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的，但明确一点，总统并没有强迫议员们现在返回华盛顿；他要等到4月中旬才会这么做？
托马斯·霍曼：听着——美国民众会追究国会的责任。他们正在休假，而与此同时数万国土安全部员工却拿不到工资。
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错，但共和党人控制着参众两院。
托马斯·霍曼：这就是机场出现的情况。
玛格丽特·布伦南：这——这是总统所在的政党。
托马斯·霍曼：民主党 shut down——民主党 shut down了国土安全部。他们投票否决了国土安全部的拨款，因为他们就是不愿意为国土安全部提供资金，因为他们想改变ICE的政策，让ICE在国内的执法效果大打折扣。
玛格丽特·布伦南：嗯……
托马斯·霍曼：记住我们为什么会走到这一步。过去四年边境开放，数百万人非法进入美国，其中许多人是公共安全威胁、国家安全威胁，我们正在追捕并逮捕他们。而他们就是不喜欢ICE执行法律。
他们过去四年已经证明了这一点。
玛格丽特·布伦南：嗯，那项法案……
托马斯·霍曼：因为他们没有——让ICE执行法律。
玛格丽特·布伦南：参议院通过的法案是两党合作的，确实为你刚才提到的所有机构提供了大量资金。问题只涉及ICE的部分条款。
但——但看起来白宫实际上并没有让本党议员统一立场，因为由共和党控制的参议院确实通过了一项拨款法案。但白宫没能让众议院领导层支持这项法案。
事实上，众议院议长迈克·约翰逊称该法案是个笑话。为什么白宫没能让总统所在政党的两党领袖达成一致？
托马斯·霍曼：听着，我一直在国会山。我参加过这些会议。我会见了两党议员。这不是白宫的问题。是民主党 shut down了国土安全部。我参加过这些会议。
玛格丽特·布伦南：所以你支持参议院通过的共和党法案吗？
托马斯·霍曼：他们想——我——我支持国会开放整个政府，开放整个国土安全部，不要因为不喜欢……就拿国土安全部的人员当人质。
玛格丽特·布伦南：所以，不是。
托马斯·霍曼：……移民执法。
玛格丽特·布伦南：你不支持参议院的法案？
托马斯·霍曼：我支持开放整个政府。我和总统站在一起。
玛格丽特·布伦南：好的。嗯……
托马斯·霍曼：我没听清。请再说一遍，女士。
玛格丽特·布伦南：所以你不支持参议院通过的、共和党领袖支持的那项法案。
托马斯·霍曼：我支持——我……
玛格丽特·布伦南：我明白了。
托马斯·霍曼：我支持美国总统全面拨款并正常运作国土安全部的主张。
玛格丽特·布伦南：好的。
那么，总统确实指示国土安全部使用其他应急资金来支付这些TSA官员的工资，他们最早有望在明天拿到薪水。这是否意味着安检系统将恢复畅通？他们真的必须出勤才能拿到工资吗？
托马斯·霍曼：是的，我认为这肯定会有所帮助，因为TSA特工之所以辞职，是因为他们不得不——你知道，比如开优步或者找其他工作，这样才能——这样才能养家糊口、支付房租。
所以我希望，随着特朗普总统和马克韦恩·马林斯部长做出的这项调整，更多人会重返工作岗位。在此之前，ICE将继续留在机场，承担那些不需要强化TSA安检的工作，比如保障机场安全、检查身份证件和出口通道，这样我们就能让更多TSA安检人员回到X光机岗位，开放更多通道。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
托马斯·霍曼：所以ICE会在那里完成工作，让TSA安检人员回到队伍中……
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
托马斯·霍曼：……希望能开放更多通道，让美国民众顺利通过机场。
玛格丽特·布伦南：好的。
那么，已有约500名TSA官员辞职。你预计能重新雇用他们吗？而且6月即将举办世界杯等重大活动。在可预见的未来，机场会出现问题吗？
托马斯·霍曼：听着，我们将继续在机场部署ICE人员，直到机场恢复——恢复到100%的正常运营状态。
玛格丽特·布伦南：好的。
托马斯·霍曼：如果更少的TSA特工回来，那就意味着我们会部署更多ICE人员。总统已经明确表示。他希望保障这些机场的安全，正如我之前所说，在当前威胁态势升级的情况下，我们需要保障这些机场的安全。
ICE会在那里帮助我们TSA的同仁。只要他们需要，我们就会一直在那里，直到他们恢复正常运营，并且觉得机场安全有保障。
玛格丽特·布伦南：好的。
那么，你之前也提到了一些原因。我们陷入这场政治僵局的原因是两党在政策方面的分歧。今年1月，蕾妮·古德和亚历克斯·普雷蒂这两名美国人在移民执法行动中被枪杀。
民主党人以此为依据，称这正是他们需要推动改革的原因。我们看到了你签署的那封信。在信中，你非常愿意——你告诉议员们，扩大使用随身摄像头，限制在学校和医院等场所开展执法活动，并要求特工表明身份。
那么，如果你愿意做出这些改变，将其写入法律又有什么坏处呢？
托马斯·霍曼：我们已经做出了这些改变。我们已经做出了这些改变。
玛格丽特·布伦南：但如果你已经——
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托马斯·霍曼：事实上，事实上，他们目前搁置的那项法案实际上拨款1.2亿美元用于购买更多摄像头。
我已经和他们谈过了。他们想——他们想，嗯，谈论政策和立法政策。听着，如果他们想修改法律，那就修改吧。我们正在执行他们制定的法律，因为我告诉过他们……
玛格丽特·布伦南：嗯，他们确实试图制定新法律。
托马斯·霍曼：举个——给我——不，给我——给我一个例子。没有一个民主党议员能给我举一个例子，哪怕一个，ICE在医院内逮捕了非法移民。我们什么时候在教堂里逮捕过非法移民？
唯一破坏教堂圣地的是唐·莱蒙和那个团体。你知道，我们——我们没有进行过那些逮捕。即使我们没有敏感地点政策，ICE的男女特工们也有常识，他们不会进入学校。
现在——我想在这里补充一个前提。如果你是重大公共安全威胁和国家安全威胁，你在美国没有避难所。但他们——他们无法指出ICE在那些所谓的敏感地点进行逮捕的任何案例。
玛格丽特·布伦南：嗯，但2025年1月出台了一项政策调整，特朗普政府表示不会——你知道，不会在这些敏感地点的执法上束手束脚。
所以——这是一个转变。
托马斯·霍曼：因为——因为——正如我所说，重大公共安全威胁或国家安全威胁在美国没有避难所。我们会找到他们。我们会逮捕他们。
不过，你无法指出我们实际进入教堂和学校的任何案例，因为我们非常努力地等待人们离开这些场所。我们等待他们。我们在他们家中或社区逮捕他们。我们非常努力地不进入那些敏感地点，因为我们知道这会引发问题。
所以这就是我一直在和国会山的议员们说的。至于随身摄像头，我在明尼阿波利斯做的第一件事就是为那里配备大量随身摄像头，让每个人都有。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
托马斯·霍曼：目前，CBP和ICE已经制定了在整个机构内配备随身摄像头的计划。不过，为此所需的资金正被国会停摆之争搁置。
玛格丽特·布伦南：好的。
那么，其中一项政策调整涉及搜查令，要求ICE在进入住宅进行逮捕前必须获得法官的司法搜查令。而这将改变当前ICE依赖部分行政搜查令的政策。听听国土安全部部长在确认听证会上的说法。
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马克韦恩·马林斯（美国国土安全部部长）：我说过，我们不会在没有司法搜查令的情况下进入住宅或商业场所，除非我们追捕的对象跑进了商业场所或住宅——或者——或者房子里。
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玛格丽特·布伦南：所以部长同意了这项调整。这项调整何时生效？
托马斯·霍曼：听着，我——我认为我们已经在就此展开讨论了。
你知道，关于I-205条款的某些法律部分，从法律上讲——你有权进入住宅。而地区法院已经——已经支持了这一点。但这些都是我们目前正在讨论的问题。
我——我每天都和马克韦恩·马林斯部长交谈，一天好几次。我们正在与白宫成员沟通。我们已经在落实所有这些政策，与其说是政策，不如说是如何——如何执行。
再说一遍，法律就是法律。如果他们不喜欢允许我们进入住宅的法律，那就修改法律。但他们还想要仅仅为了逮捕非法移民就申请司法搜查令。联邦法律中没有这样的规定。事实上，国会制定的法律规定，你可以使用行政搜查令逮捕非法移民。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
托马斯·霍曼：联邦法令就是这么规定的。
不过，他们想要——他们想要仅仅为了逮捕非法移民就申请司法搜查令。他们要求的政策变革实际上是法律层面的变革。再说一遍，如果他们不喜欢ICE的所作所为，他们可以修改法律。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
托马斯·霍曼：就这么简单。
玛格丽特·布伦南：嗯，我理解你的观点是修改法律。很多人都想这么做。但也存在对现行法律的解释问题。
而代理ICE局长托德·莱昂斯在5月份发出的备忘录称：“国土安全部法律顾问重新解释了现行法律，允许特工无需司法搜查令即可实施逮捕。”
我们听到新任部长表示他们不会在没有司法搜查令的情况下进入住宅，马林斯部长是在说明现行政策吗？你们是否正在改变特朗普政府自5月以来的政策？
托马斯·霍曼：我不会代表马林斯部长发言，但我认为他已经明确表示他正在考虑此事。他上任前发表的那些言论。我认为他正在展望未来。
但我做的第一件事之一就是要求对这种重新解释进行全面的法律审查。我想确切了解——我不是——我不是律师，但我已经要求司法部对此进行全面审查，我们将看看结果如何。但我认为马林斯部长说到做到。我认为他正在展望未来。
玛格丽特·布伦南：嗯，我们将看看他们的最终决定。
霍曼先生，非常感谢你今天上午抽出时间。
《直面国家》节目稍后回来，请继续收看。
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玛格丽特·布伦南：现在我们连线众议院情报委员会首席民主党人吉姆·海姆斯众议员，他在康涅狄格州格林威治与我们连线。
早上好。
众议员吉姆·海姆斯（康涅狄格州民主党人）：早上好，玛格丽特。
玛格丽特·布伦南：你刚刚听到了边境事务专员、白宫代表的观点。
不过从政治角度来说，我的意思是，民主党人原本打算通过停摆来限制ICE的执法方式。但实际上，ICE已经获得了资金。事实上，它是少数几个仍能拿到工资的国土安全部实体之一，因为总统上次的法案为其提供了大量资金。
而现在他们的职责范围正在扩大，因为他们被派往全国各地的美国机场。那么民主党人从这场对峙中得到了什么？
吉姆·海姆斯：是的，嗯，玛格丽特，这场对峙还没有结束，对吧？
总统显然在非法支付TSA员工的工资。正如你指出的，参议院——和霍曼先生——在参议院全票通过了一项两党法案，内容是，听着，我们先为其他所有部门提供资金，然后再处理ICE这个棘手的问题。
但共和党控制的众议院却说，见鬼，不行，我们不会这么做，而且，顺便说一句，还嘲笑了参议院自己的共和党领袖。所以，听着——这件事仍然悬而未决，原因非常简单。我们可以谈论众议院、参议院、修改法律。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
吉姆·海姆斯：原因非常简单，绝大多数美国人看到了ICE的所作所为，包括两名美国公民被谋杀，看到他们无搜查令就闯入美国公民的家门，看到他们打扮得像——就像空降费卢杰去做合法的工作……
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
吉姆·海姆斯：……追捕国内的非法移民，他们会说，这不行。这就是我们的立场。
玛格丽特·布伦南：所以……
吉姆·海姆斯：我们的立场非常明确，我们希望ICE像他们本该是的那样行事。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
吉姆·海姆斯：而——这场斗争还没有结束。
而且，听着，我很抱歉事情演变成这样。我很抱歉国会山一侧的共和党人说这是个好主意，而另一侧的共和党人却称之为笑话。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
吉姆·海姆斯：但我们已经准备好就一些并不激进的要求进行谈判。
玛格丽特·布伦南：好的。
吉姆·海姆斯：我们只是希望ICE像合格的警察一样行事。
玛格丽特·布伦南：那么，与此同时，总统正在重新分配现有资金来支付TSA员工的工资。你说他是非法支付。你认为他按照白宫的说法，违反了法律吗？
吉姆·海姆斯：嗯，不是我认为，而是我知道，对吧？
我的意思是，如果说美国有哪一项权力是国会拥有的，那就是钱包权。当然，这位总统一贯、普遍地声称他拥有这项权力。
玛格丽特·布伦南：所以他们不应该拿到工资？
吉姆·海姆斯：但任何上过四年级公民课的美国人——不，他们应该拿到工资。
他们本不该被当作人质。我们原本有一项参议院全票通过的协议，如果它获得通过，对吧？现在，他们早就该拿到工资了。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
吉姆·海姆斯：我们也就不会讨论宪法赋予的钱包权了。但众议院议长迈克·约翰逊对参议院共和党人同意的法案说见鬼，不行。
玛格丽特·布伦南：不过，有三名民主党人也支持了议长约翰逊提出的众议院版本法案，即使其中没有任何新的问责措施。
格卢森坎普·佩雷斯众议员表示，她之所以支持，是因为不支付员工工资是错误的，而民主党设定了无法实现的目标。她说，既然白宫同意了诸如配备随身摄像头之类的措施——她是不是有道理，正如她所说，意识形态上的纯粹主义正在阻碍工薪阶层的利益？
吉姆·海姆斯：所以，这不是意识形态纯粹主义的问题。
我同意玛丽的一点，即员工不应该被当作人质。我们可以回到这个话题上来。但这绝不是极端要求。再说一遍，我们只是要求那些人不要打扮得像海豹突击队队员一样进入明尼阿波利斯。我们要求他们像其他警察一样佩戴徽章，破门而入时要有搜查令。
玛格丽特·布伦南：其中一些事情已经达成一致了。
吉姆·海姆斯：这不是意识形态纯粹主义。这是基本的守法行为。
是的，好吧，那么，好的，既然一切都已达成一致，那就通过法律将其制度化吧，因为你知道吗？我们不相信总统，就像我们不相信他说的，好吧，没有口罩，就像我们不相信他说的，哦，好吧，现在我正在和伊朗人谈判，而实际上他并没有那么做，对吧？
所以，如果这真的这么容易，那就好，将其写入法律。但他们并没有——你知道，他们不愿意这么做。现在，玛丽说得有道理——这很重要——我们已经太习惯于利用停摆作为达成立法目标的手段了。
而这意味着，像TSA员工……
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
吉姆·海姆斯：……或者农业部等联邦政府部门的工作人员，当一党发脾气时，他们就拿不到工资，对吧？
在这件事上，我碰巧认为美国民众相信——你知道，支持民主党，说，你不能像ICE在明尼阿波利斯那样行事。但我们确实需要摆脱通过停摆进行立法的做法。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
吉姆·海姆斯：这不符合我们伟大国家的形象。
玛格丽特·布伦南：嗯，民众只是希望他们的机场和基本政府能够正常运转。
但关于你提出的那一点，你说总统并没有真正在和伊朗谈判。这是因为作为国会议员你没有收到相关简报，还是你认为他完全在撒谎？
吉姆·海姆斯：哦，我认为他完全在撒谎。
上周日，当有人告诉他——顺便说一句，我们今天的处境完全一样，你知道，油价现在涨到了每桶112美元，股市期货下跌了2%。上周日，他才意识到，哦，我的天，周一我将面临金融灾难。所以他只是编造说他们正在和伊朗人谈判。
听着，在这番言论背后，伊朗人现在意识到他们掌握了主动权。他们控制着霍尔木兹海峡。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
吉姆·海姆斯：汽油价格每加仑上涨了一美元多，所以伊朗人意识到，天哪，我们在这里有很大的影响力。
玛格丽特·布伦南：今天在伊斯兰堡，有许多调停者与美国接触，表示他们正在就伊朗问题进行谈判，但目前美国和伊朗都没有坐在谈判桌前。
不过，再谈谈伊朗问题，我知道你关心乌克兰的局势。值得注意的是，乌克兰总统泽连斯基最近几天一直在海湾地区。他昨天表示，俄罗斯正在向伊朗提供卫星图像，这些图像包含美国军事基地的位置。
他还表示，俄罗斯正在向伊朗提供信号情报和电子情报。你知道有证据表明俄罗斯正在积极协助伊朗对美国开战吗？
吉姆·海姆斯：嗯，我必须谨慎一点，玛格丽特，因为我确实会审查情报，而且我显然不能谈论机密信息。
但是，小伙子，我绝对不会反驳泽连斯基总统的这一说法。我想请美国民众想一想，你认为普京现在在做什么？四年来，我们一直——在我看来是正确的——帮助乌克兰给俄罗斯造成沉重打击。
那么你认为会发生什么？与此同时，如你所知，我们正在放任伊朗——所以现在伊朗正在获得数十亿美元——向中国出售石油，这样他们就能从俄罗斯购买无人机。我们正在放任俄罗斯出售石油，这样他们就能获得美元来攻击乌克兰人，并用这些美元来帮助——帮助攻击我们的部队。
我的意思是，这简直就是好莱坞剧本都编不出来的情节。
玛格丽特·布伦南：嗯，鲁比奥国务卿被问及俄罗斯向伊朗提供援助的程度，他对此轻描淡写。他说这不会对战场产生影响。
我知道法国、英国都表示俄罗斯和伊朗正在无人机领域相互帮助。当你听到鲁比奥国务卿的言论时，你怎么看？
吉姆·海姆斯：我认为这非常符合马可·鲁比奥的利益，作为这场战争的主要支持者之一，美国民众现在开始意识到这是一场灾难，另一个泥潭，马可·鲁比奥才会说，哦，它们不会产生影响。
好吧，我不同意马可·鲁比奥的观点。你知道，俄罗斯拥有相关能力……
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
吉姆·海姆斯：……比如使用基本的卫星技术，顺便说一句，这可以通过商业渠道实现……
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
吉姆·海姆斯：……来定位我们的航空母舰。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
吉姆·海姆斯：我们在该地区的军事基地，玛格丽特，现在据说已经无法驻扎了。你认为这是为什么？
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
在我让你结束采访之前，民主党人一直在将腐败作为攻击总统、夺回众议院控制权的竞选主题。你的民主党同僚、佛罗里达州的希拉·谢尔菲勒斯-麦科米克因在新冠救济资金中窃取数百万美元而被认定犯有25项道德违规行为。
她应该辞职吗？应该被驱逐吗？
吉姆·海姆斯：你知道，如果她不辞职，众议院将进行投票，而且，你知道，人们会找到支持这位女议员的理由，就像共和党人支持乔治·桑托斯一样。
玛格丽特·布伦南：她应该辞职吗？
吉姆·海姆斯：而在我们处于战争状态、汽油价格过高的时候，这种情况不应该发生。
所以我希望我的同僚能选择辞职，从而避免这种结果。但同样重要的是，两党都……
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
吉姆·海姆斯：……要在惩罚本党内部的道德失误方面保持一致。
玛格丽特·布伦南：好的，你希望她辞职。
谢谢你，众议员，感谢你今天提供的所有见解。我们必须到此为止了。
我们稍后回来。
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玛格丽特·布伦南：我们很快会带来更多《直面国家》的内容。
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玛格丽特·布伦南：欢迎回到《直面国家》。
现在我们连线前美国卫生局局长杰罗姆·亚当斯医生，他今天上午在印第安纳波利斯与我们连线。
早上好，医生。
杰罗姆·亚当斯医生（前美国卫生局局长）：谢谢你邀请我，玛格丽特。
我想首先告诉观众们，他们需要了解的最重要的事情是，如今美国最紧迫的健康威胁不是阿片类药物或肥胖，而是信任危机。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
杰罗姆·亚当斯医生：70%的美国人表示他们支持儿童疫苗接种和学校疫苗 mandate，但同样多数的人表示他们不相信罗伯特·肯尼迪的健康信息，也不相信卫生局局长提名人凯西·米恩斯的建议。
玛格丽特·布伦南：嗯——
杰罗姆·亚当斯医生：所以，不承认这种急剧下降的信任——
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
杰罗姆·亚当斯医生：——或者更糟的是，如果我们被视为加剧了这种信任危机，将会伤害美国民众。事实上，玛格丽特，根据共和党民调专家法布里齐奥·沃德的说法，这将在11月的选举中伤害共和党。
玛格丽特·布伦南：嗯，这不是我接下来要问的问题，但是的，我看过一些民调，结果显示“美国医疗协会”（MAHA）的健康指导比疫苗怀疑论更能引起选民的共鸣。
杰罗姆·亚当斯医生：完全正确。
玛格丽特·布伦南：所以共和党人似乎在发出更符合大多数选民心声的信号。
但就当前的政策而言，你在特朗普总统的第一任期内担任过卫生局局长。根据疾控中心的数据，自1月以来，美国已有超过1500例确诊的麻疹病例。犹他州出现了疫情暴发。为什么现有的医疗基础设施无法阻止这种情况？
杰罗姆·亚当斯医生：嗯，这是个好问题。你首先必须了解，已有近2万人从卫生与公众服务部（HHS）被裁员。所以通常情况下，我们每年都会有麻疹病例。2024年我们约有250例。去年约有2000例。正如你提到的，今年我们已经达到了1500例。但通常情况下，我们能够控制这些疫情暴发，因为有疾控中心，因为有公共卫生基础设施和资金。所有这些都被削减了。现在，原本一例病例会变成两三例并被遏制，现在却变成了20例、50例、100例。我们还看到疫苗接种率下降。多个州的麻疹疫苗接种率已经低于群体免疫所需的95%阈值。犹他州、科罗拉多州、佛罗里达州、佐治亚州、肯塔基州，都低于95%的阈值。我们离这个阈值越远，疫情暴发就越猛烈。
玛格丽特·布伦南：嗯，你提到了那份备忘录。那是一位继续为总统和共和党提供咨询的民调专家托尼·法布里齐奥撰写的。在备忘录中他写道：“与疫苗和疫苗安全性相关的政策需要谨慎处理，措辞要细致。这是因为总体而言，微弱多数的选民并不相信疫苗会对健康产生负面影响。”
他当时是在谈论“美国优先”和“让美国再次伟大”阵营如何为了共和党人的利益继续合作。但他说有微弱多数的人不相信疫苗，这听起来好像你的政党确实在这个问题上陷入了困境，坦率地说。
杰罗姆·亚当斯医生：嗯，他们确实如此。而且我理解为什么父母们对医疗系统感到沮丧。它确实不为民众服务。作为医生，我们一直被教导要尊重患者的自主权。但这里的区别在于，你看到的是卫生部长和整个机构都在积极散布对疫苗和医疗系统的不信任。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
杰罗姆·亚当斯医生：我认为我们可以兼顾两者。我认为我们可以尊重患者的自主权。我们需要确保促进患者与他们的医生、药剂师或护士之间的对话，同时告诉人们我们已知的事实，也就是儿童疫苗，比如麻疹、腮腺炎、风疹疫苗，是安全的、有效的，而且是我们一生中最重要的公共卫生成就。如果我们在疫苗问题上倒退，我们就无法让美国更健康。
玛格丽特·布伦南：那么，卫生委员会主席、同时也是医生的比尔·卡西迪参议员，询问了凯西·米恩斯——也就是你提到的那位被特朗普政府提名为下一任卫生局局长的医生——他问她是否会建议母亲为孩子接种麻疹疫苗。以下是她在确认听证会上的回应片段。
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参议员比尔·卡西迪（路易斯安那州共和党人）：如果你是美国的医生，你会鼓励她为孩子接种疫苗吗？
卫生局局长提名人凯西·米恩斯：我不是个人的医生。每个个体都应该在将药物注入体内前与他们的医生沟通。我绝对支持麻疹疫苗，而且我确实相信疫苗可以挽救生命，是公共卫生战略的重要组成部分。
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玛格丽特·布伦南：所以这位医生确实表示她支持——支持麻疹疫苗。为什么这还达不到你希望从这个职位上听到的标准？
杰罗姆·亚当斯医生：嗯，第一，我看了听证会。这是在多次追问和含糊其辞之后才说出来的，第一。而且她说她不是个人的医生。这是正确的。但你申请的是美国医生的职位。
对我来说，这无关个人或政治。第一，而且我之前跟你说过，这是关于她不具备担任该职位的基本资格。她没有有效的行医执照，这将是有史以来第一位没有有效行医执照的卫生局局长。
但除此之外，关于你提到的那一点，在大规模麻疹疫情暴发之际，美国需要一位能够明确支持疫苗的卫生局局长。我上任时，正面临阿片类药物危机和过量用药危机。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
杰罗姆·亚当斯医生：想象一下，如果我说，作为卫生局局长，我不应该告诉人们使用纳洛酮这种阿片类药物过量逆转剂。他们应该和他们的医生讨论这个问题。那在那种情况下是不可接受的，而一位在疫苗问题上含糊其辞的卫生局局长，更不用说一位无法行医、不具备在公共卫生服务团行医资格的人，同样也是不可接受的。
玛格丽特·布伦南：嗯，这位医生显然有一份无效的行医执照，她说她自愿将其置于无效状态。
我想谈谈这个问题，因为这似乎是有意为之，而非意外，对吧？因为卫生部长将米恩斯医生描述为这个职位的完美人选。他说：“卫生局局长是道德权威的象征，能够对抗将医疗服务公司化的金融和机构势力。”他说她是一名优秀的学生和外科住院医师，但她离开了传统医疗行业，因为患者没有得到好转，这就是为什么她应该在这个时刻成为变革者。
那么，当你说存在信任危机时，你如何回应那些认为此次任命的目的就是变革的人？
杰罗姆·亚当斯医生：嗯，再次说明，第一，最近的“Axios”民调显示，68%的受访者表示他们不会相信凯西·米恩斯作为卫生局局长给出的健康建议。所以如果你提前就被告知公众不会信任你提名的人，你就无法重建信任。
而且，再说一次，我不想轻描淡写。每位医生、每位护士、每位公共卫生服务团的药剂师都必须保持有效的行医执照。我曾因没有有效行医执照而解雇过员工。所以这不是变革的问题。凯西·米恩斯可以加入本届政府。她可以为白宫提供建议。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
杰罗姆·亚当斯医生：她可以为肯尼迪部长提供建议，就像她哥哥做的那样。但这并不意味着她有资格担任美国卫生局局长，尤其是在退出住院医师计划且没有有效行医执照的情况下。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。顺便提一下，目前也没有参议院确认的疾控中心主任，正值这场危机之中。
让我再谈谈社交媒体，因为上周有几起重大案件。新墨西哥州的一个陪审团裁定Meta平台通过误导用户了解Facebook、Instagram和WhatsApp的安全性，违反了消费者保护法。加州还有另一起诉讼，将Meta与一名年轻女性的抑郁症联系起来。
作为一名医生，你确信社交媒体与健康有直接关联吗？
杰罗姆·亚当斯医生：作为一名医生和家长，我确信这些事实。我有三个十几岁的孩子。我们知道，根据卫生局局长墨菲的报告，越来越多且非常可靠的证据表明，社交媒体的使用，尤其是在较低年龄段，与焦虑症、抑郁症的增加、睡眠不足有关，而睡眠不足实际上会导致心理健康问题以及肥胖。
所以，作为一个社会，我们需要了解社交媒体带来的危害，类似于之前卫生局局长指出的香烟带来的危害。我们还需要，类似于香烟的情况，指出这些平台，也就是社交媒体平台，具有极强的成瘾性，我们在这些诉讼中再次听到，它们被专门设计用来让儿童成瘾，就像当年香烟制造商试图让儿童成瘾一样。
所以，我很高兴我们正在就此展开对话。政策制定会很困难，但澳大利亚已经做到了。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
杰罗姆·亚当斯医生：他们已经禁止16岁以下的儿童使用社交媒体。我相信有25个州正在——正在讨论或已经出台立法，禁止在学校使用社交媒体和手机。我们需要真正了解不受限制的屏幕时间和社交媒体对我们的孩子造成的伤害。
玛格丽特·布伦南：在我让你结束采访之前，肯尼迪部长昨天在保守派政治行动会议上发表了讲话。他说他担心手机问题，并建议家长不要让孩子睡觉时把手机放在床边。你同意这个建议吗？
杰罗姆·亚当斯医生：是的。实际上，美国儿科学会（AAP）、加州卫生部门都表示，我们不应该允许儿童在卧室里使用手机。这会让他们晚上睡不着觉。还会让他们不断遭受网络欺凌。是的，这是一个好习惯，我同意部长的观点。我们应该不让年轻人接触手机和社交媒体，尤其是在晚上他们的卧室里。
玛格丽特·布伦南：好的，医生，感谢你今天提供的见解。
我们稍后回来。
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玛格丽特·布伦南：为了更深入地了解正在进行的伊朗战争，我们连线了伊朗政策分析师卡里姆·萨贾德普尔，以及前中央司令部司令、CBS新闻特约撰稿人、退役将军弗兰克·麦肯齐，他今天上午在坦帕与我们连线。
早上好，两位。
卡里姆，我先从你开始。
今天在伊斯兰堡，巴基斯坦、土耳其、埃及这些自称调停者的国家聚集在一起，讨论如何缓和战争局势。到目前为止，伊朗尚未回应特朗普政府提出的15项条件。鲁比奥甚至不确定他们要和谁谈判。那么，我们实际要谈判的对象是谁，我们真的在谈判吗？
卡里姆·萨贾德普尔（卡内基国际和平基金会高级研究员）：嗯，玛格丽特，这是一个政权，伊朗伊斯兰共和国，1979年掌权，扣押了美国外交官，现在他们认为自己挟持了全球经济。他们正在为生存而战。他们也在为报复特朗普总统而战。
所以目前，他们似乎并不觉得有必要妥协，因为趋势线是油价上涨，美国民众对战争的支持率下降，而且我们希望与之谈判的许多领导人现在都在地下，为生存而战。
玛格丽特·布伦南：嗯，关于这种不对称的实力差距，将军，我想请你谈谈，伊朗一直在等待的一件事是激活其民兵组织，或者它在也门支持的胡塞武装。上周末，他们介入了战斗，向以色列发射了导弹。你认为这是否改变了局势，因为他们不仅可能扰乱霍尔木兹海峡，还可能扰乱红海的另一条航道？
弗兰克·麦肯齐将军（退役）：玛格丽特，我不认为这会改变局势。他们攻击以色列的能力非常有限。是的，他们将有能力进一步阻止、减缓通过巴布埃尔曼德布海峡、通往苏伊士运河的船只交通。我们有能力前往那里阻止这种情况。这将需要额外的资源，但我们有这些资源，如果必要的话，我们肯定可以做到。
玛格丽特·布伦南：嗯，总统明确表示，他需要重新开放霍尔木兹海峡。他在一些问题上的措辞相互矛盾，比如谁将负责以及何时负责。实现通航的军事现实是什么？
弗兰克·麦肯齐将军：我们现在正在这么做，玛格丽特。这是一项已经存在多年的计划。我们现在正在做的是，通过持续24小时覆盖伊朗南部的空中优势，减少伊朗对海峡内船只的打击能力，包括他们的短程导弹、无人机和其他行动。我们通过不间断地寻找这些导弹的位置并予以打击来做到这一点。
一旦我们将这些威胁降低到非常低的水平，届时如果必要的话，我们就可以进入并扫雷。我不确定他们是否已经在水中布设了水雷。我预测他们最终会这么做。这是他们的本性。
但我们有能力做到这一点。我们正在——我们正在按计划进行。老实说，玛格丽特，我在中央司令部多年来多次模拟过这种情况。根据我看到的所有模拟结果，我们目前的进展比预期的要快一点。
玛格丽特·布伦南：我猜，在你的模拟中，你研究过霍尔木兹海峡的情况，尽管总统说过没人想过这个问题。你确实研究过，对吧？
弗兰克·麦肯齐将军：美国军方考虑过很多事情。我们当然考虑过霍尔木兹海峡。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
弗兰克·麦肯齐将军：考虑过哈尔克岛。考虑过伊朗南部沿岸的所有那些岛屿。
玛格丽特·布伦南：卡里姆，总统说以色列杀死了他原本以为可以与之谈判的二级务实派人士。最近几天出现的名字是议会议长加利巴夫。我们对他了解多少？他是可以与之达成协议的人吗？
卡里姆·萨贾德普尔：加利巴夫是一位重要的前高级革命卫队指挥官，也是穆贾塔巴·哈梅内伊的亲密顾问。在不同的情况下，他是一位渴望成为伊朗现代强人领袖的人。我实际上在达沃斯世界经济论坛上见过他。只是他出现在达沃斯这一事实——
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
卡里姆·萨贾德普尔：就显示了他的世界观。
但在当前的情况下，伊朗体系中没有人能够改变长期以来对美国和以色列的敌视意识形态，即使他们想这么做。
玛格丽特·布伦南：请解释一下。因为我们从白宫和以色列听到的是，施压会让他们屈服。你是说他们无法被击败吗？
卡里姆·萨贾德普尔：目前，未来可能会改变，但我们还没有看到该政权决心出现任何裂痕。我们还没有看到其安全部队凝聚力的任何裂痕。而且考虑到其许多高级官员，包括最高领袖，都已被杀，这个政权并不准备妥协或改变其意识形态。他们实际上相信对美国的敌视是他们身份的一部分。如果你在这方面屈服，实际上不会延长你的执政时间，反而可能加速你的灭亡。
玛格丽特·布伦南：那么，如果没有谈判解决方案，这场战争将如何结束？
卡里姆·萨贾德普尔：我看不到这场冲突有任何解决的可能。我认为美国和伊朗在此次行动的目标上相去甚远。
现在，我们可能会看到一个潜在的停火，开放霍尔木兹海峡，这将使我们从热战回到冷战，但在我看来，只要这个政权掌权，美伊关系正常化就不可能。
玛格丽特·布伦南：将军，你同意这个评估吗？我的意思是，特朗普政府似乎承认如果该政权至少愿意进行谈判，该政权就会继续掌权，所以这将允许他们继续掌权。
弗兰克·麦肯齐将军：伊朗外交政策的首要目标，玛格丽特，是政权的生存。20世纪80年代末，当伊朗局势非常糟糕时，他们与伊拉克签署了停战协议。在伊朗历史上，这被称为“饮鸩止渴”。我相信他们会屈服。我相信他们会达成协议。这可能不是一个完美的解决方案，但它将包括开放霍尔木兹海峡，可能在导弹系统方面达成一些协议。核计划当然也是一个可能性。但我相信他们最终会达成协议。但我们需要继续施压。我们需要继续对他们施加巨大压力，因为这实际上是他们唯一会回应的方式。
玛格丽特·布伦南：那么，总统在社交媒体上表示，他已将开放霍尔木兹海峡的最后期限推迟，应伊朗政府的要求。他说已将期限推迟至4月6日晚上8点。
我们还从国务卿那里听到，他正在与盟友讨论战后需要其他国家帮助 essentially 监管海峡。他说，油轮需要军事护航。所以，这听起来不像是一个短期项目。这听起来像是，即使战斗结束，我们也将在未来一段时间内谈论在该地区的军事存在。我错了吗？
弗兰克·麦肯齐将军：玛格丽特，你可能是对的。我们拭目以待。我认为有两种方式可以开放霍尔木兹海峡。如果伊朗人与我们谈判开放海峡，那么海峡就可以开放。当然，这是我们期望的解决方案。
另一种解决方案是，如果他们不愿意，并且决定战斗。我们也可以在这种情况下开放海峡。
第二种情况显然需要我们向该地区部署更多的船只和装备，显然，盟友的帮助在这种情况下肯定会——会非常有用。
我们有能力在伊朗选择的任何情况下开放霍尔木兹海峡。
玛格丽特·布伦南：你是否认为白宫正在计划的应急措施之一，鉴于他们继续向该地区调派部队，以及这些海军陆战队员也正在进入该地区，他们是否在准备地面部队的存在？那会是什么样子？
弗兰克·麦肯齐将军：玛格丽特，多年来我们一直在考虑伊朗南部沿海的行动选项，夺取岛屿、夺取小型基地。通常是突袭。突袭是有计划撤退的行动。你不会留在那里。但你可以夺取并守住其中一些岛屿。这会有几个效果。首先，这将对伊朗造成极大的羞辱，并在谈判中给我们巨大的筹码。其次，哈尔克岛的例子，每个人都在谈论，如果你夺取哈尔克岛，你真的可以彻底摧毁伊朗的石油经济。而夺取它的好处是，你不会摧毁它。你会保留它，供全球经济进一步使用，并可能在某些条件下归还伊朗。
所以，所有这些事情——这不是事后的——这些都不是事后的想法。这些是我们多年来一直在研究的事情。而且我认为我们威胁整个沿海地区，提出所有这些选项，是正确的。而且我认为总统在谈到所有这些替代方案时的信息是完全正确的。
玛格丽特·布伦南：但他能在不派遣地面部队的情况下实现目标，正如国务卿所说，这怎么可能？这场战争将如何结束？你怎么能称之为胜利？
弗兰克·麦肯齐将军：当然。我认为胜利的样子是霍尔木兹海峡开放。我们在弹道导弹计划、核计划方面达成某种协议。这可能是你能期望的最多了。但我认为有一些非常具体的事情，至少对我这个军事行动者来说，看起来像是胜利。
我相信所有这些事情实际上都在我们的掌握之中。我们只需要继续下去。伊朗最终会对使用武力做出回应。他们可能比我们过去更了解这一点——我们过去了解得不够。本届政府愿意使用武力。其他政府则完全被伊朗威慑住了。特朗普总统并没有被伊朗威慑住。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。嗯，总统说他想要达成协议，尽管，我知道你认为达成协议会非常困难。
弗兰克·麦肯齐将军：嗯——
玛格丽特·布伦南：而且他说万斯副总统将直接参与此事，卡里姆。这对你意味着什么？
卡里姆·萨贾德普尔：嗯，伊朗人实际上想和万斯副总统谈判，原因有几个。第一，他们认为他来自共和党的反战阵营。第二，他们认为由于J·D·万斯想竞选总统，他有动力尽快结束这场战争。
而且我同意麦肯齐将军说的一些话，也就是，我们知道在过去的五十年里，这个政权只有在明确的情况下才会妥协，当它面临 existential 压力，再加上明确的外交出路。我认为它正面临 existential 压力。我不认为它——他们还没有看到明确的外交出路。
玛格丽特·布伦南：嗯，先生们，感谢你们两位为这次对话提供专业见解。我们必须到此为止了。
萨贾德普尔：谢谢。
玛格丽特·布伦南：我们稍后回来。
（广告时段）
玛格丽特·布伦南：本周可能标志着人类太空飞行新时代的开始。美国国家航空航天局的阿尔忒弥斯二号任务定于4月1日发射，搭载四名宇航员绕月飞行，十天后返回地球。机组人员包括三名美国人和一名加拿大人，其中包括首位女性、首位有色人种以及首位有望登月的加拿大人。这是50多年来首次载人登月任务。如果一切按计划进行，你可以在CBS新闻上观看全程报道，并于下周日在《直面国家》节目中了解更多。
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玛格丽特·布伦南：今天的节目就是这些。感谢大家的收看。下周见。我是玛格丽特·布伦南，来自《直面国家》。
（广告时段）
Full transcript of “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan,” March 29, 2026
2026-03-29 / https://www.cbsnews.com/news/face-the-nation-full-transcript-03-29-2026/
On this “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:
- Tom Homan,Trump administration border czar
- Rep. Jim Himes, Democrat of Connecticut
- Jerome Adams, former U.S. Surgeon General
- Iran policy analyst Karim Sadjadpour and former CENTCOM commander and CBS News contributor and retired Gen. Frank McKenzie
Click here to browse full transcripts from 2026 of “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan.”
*
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m Margaret Brennan in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: continued conflicting messages out of the White House when it comes to the war against Iran and why Americans are increasingly bearing the brunt of Washington’s action or inaction.
It’s a spectacular spring in the nation’s capital, but Congress has fled the city after showing they’re incapable of consensus when it comes to funding the Homeland Security Department. President Trump says he will use other means to pay TSA officers until an agreement is reached.
But will that be enough to ease the long security lines at some of the country’s busiest airports while the House and Senate are out of town for the next two weeks?
Another spring break frustration for Americans, skyrocketing gas prices due to the war in Iran, which has now entered its second month. The conflict is only intensifying, and U.S. preparations for a ground offensive are ramping up, despite the president’s insistence that Iran has been devastated.
(Begin VT)
DONALD TRUMP (President of the United States): And they will tell you, we’re not negotiating. We will not negotiate. Of course, they’re negotiating. They have been obliterated. Who wouldn’t negotiate? They are begging to make a deal.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: That deal can’t come soon enough for the president, as there are worrisome signs about the overall economy faltering due to the war, and even some Republicans are questioning his mission in the Middle East.
As for Democrats, millions marched in unity on the streets of the nation’s cities in town Saturday in a movement that could mean trouble for the GOP when it comes to the midterm elections.
We will address the challenges to DHS with White House border czar Tom Homan. Plus, we will talk with the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, Jim Himes, and check in with former Surgeon General Dr. Jerome Adams about the alarming spread of measles and the impact of social media on children.
It’s all just ahead on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.
Today marks the 44th day of the partial shutdown of the Homeland Security Department, now the longest in history. So far, it has resulted in at least 500 TSA officers quitting their jobs, and sick-outs continue, although officers are expected to be paid as early as tomorrow through an executive order signed by the president late last week.
As for the funding impasse, Democrats want reforms to ICE and the president’s deportation policy to be part of the bill before they will agree to fully fund Homeland Security. Republicans are resisting that, and the standoff is likely to continue while Congress is gone for the next two weeks.
We begin with White House border czar Tom Homan, who was tasked by the president to help oversee ICE efforts following the killings of Renee Good and Alex Pretti earlier this year out in Minneapolis.
Good morning to you, sir.
THOMAS HOMAN (White House Border Czar): Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, Congress is gone until mid-April. Will the president compel them to come back and sort this out?
THOMAS HOMAN: Well, look, I hope so.
I mean, they got to – they got to fund the Department of Homeland Security. Again, we’re talking about the Department of Homeland Security. And we’re in an increased threat posture right now because of what’s going on in the world. We’ve got to keep this country safe, which means we got to we got to fund the members of the Coast Guard and CISA and Secret Service and all these other agencies within the Department of Homeland Security.
I know the president found a way to pay TSA workers so we can get the American public through those lines. And he also came up with the idea of sending ICE agents to the airport, which has had an impact. So we just need to get the department funded. They want to talk about, you know, immigration policies, we can talk about that.
But why do you got to hold the rest of the DHS hostage to do that? Let’s sit down and talk. I have been talking to them for the last two weeks.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes, but just to be clear, the president is not forcing lawmakers to come back to Washington now;he’s going to wait until mid-April to do this?
THOMAS HOMAN: Look – and the American people hold Congress responsible. They’re on vacation right now while tens of thousands of DHS employees aren’t being paid.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right, but Republicans control both chambers.
THOMAS HOMAN: And that’s what happened at the airports.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s the – this is the president’s party.
THOMAS HOMAN: The Democrats shut – the Democrats shut down DHS. They voted to shut down DHS because they simply won’t fund DHS, because they want to change ICE policies, so ICE is less effective in the interior.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well…
THOMAS HOMAN: Remember why we’re here. We’re here because the last four years of an open border, millions of people are in this country illegally, many public safety threats, national security threats, and we’re out seeking them and arresting them. And they simply don’t like ICE enforcing the law.
They proved that the last four years.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, the bill that…
THOMAS HOMAN: because they didn’t – let ICE enforce the law.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The bill that passed the Senate was bipartisan, and it did have a lot of the funding for the agencies you just laid out there. The issue was specific to parts of ICE.
But – but it seems like the White House really didn’t force your party to get in line here, because that Republican-controlled Senate did pass a funding bill. The White House didn’t get the House of Representatives leadership on board with that.
In fact, the speaker, Mike Johnson, said that bill was a joke. Why wasn’t the White House able to get both parties – both heads of the party the president controls on the same page?
THOMAS HOMAN: Look, I have been up on the Hill. I have been in these meetings. I have met with lawmakers from both sides. This isn’t a White House issue. This is the Democrats shutting down the Department of Homeland Security. I have been in these meetings.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So did you support the Republican bill in the Senate that passed?
THOMAS HOMAN: They – they wanted – I – I support Congress opening up the entire government, the entire DHS, and not holding people in DHS hostage because they don’t like…
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, no.
THOMAS HOMAN: … immigration enforcement.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You weren’t on board with the Senate bill?
THOMAS HOMAN: I support opening up the entire government. I’m with the president.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK. Well…
THOMAS HOMAN: I missed that. Say it again, ma’am.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you were not in favor of the bill that passed the Senate, which the Republican leader supported.
THOMAS HOMAN: I support – I…
MARGARET BRENNAN: I got it.
THOMAS HOMAN: I support the president of the United States in getting DHS fully funded and operating.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
So, tell me, so the president did direct DHS to use other pots of emergency cash to pay these TSA officers, and they’re supposed to receive paychecks as early as tomorrow. Does that mean that the system is going to become unclogged? Do they actually have to show up to work to get paid?
THOMAS HOMAN: Yes, I think it’s certainly going to help, because TSA agents have left the job because they got to – you know, whether it’s driving Ubers or finding other jobs so that – so they can feed their families and pay the rent.
So I’m hoping, with this – this change that President Trump put in place with – with Secretary Markwayne Mullin, that more will come back to work. Until then, ICE will remain in airports to take those jobs that – to secure the airport and check – check identification and check exit lanes, where people enter through exits, do the jobs that don’t require the enhanced TSA screening, so we can get more TSA screeners on the X-ray machines, to open up more lanes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
THOMAS HOMAN: So ICE is there to do the job, to get TSA screeners back to the line…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
THOMAS HOMAN: … and hopefully open more lines, get the American public through the airport.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
Well, there’s like, 500 TSA officers who have quit. Do you expect to be able to rehire them? And we have some big events like the World Cup coming up in June. Are we going to have problems at airports for the foreseeable future?
THOMAS HOMAN: Look, we’re going to continue an ICE presence there until the airports feel like they’re in – they’re in 100 percent in a posture where they can do no normal operations.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
THOMAS HOMAN: If less TSA agents come back, that means we’ll keep more ICE agents there. The president has been clear. He wants to secure those airports, especially, as I said earlier, in an increased threat posture. We need to secure those airports.
ICE is there to help our brothers and sisters in TSA. We’ll be there as long as they need us, until they get back to normal operations and feel like those airports are secure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
So, the – you referenced some of this earlier. The reason that we got to this political standoff is because of the differences between Democrats and Republicans on the policy part of this. And back in January, those two Americans, Renee Good and Alex Pretti, were shot during immigration actions.
Democrats point to that and say this is why they need to force change. We saw that letter you signed. And, in it, you were very willing, you told lawmakers, to expand the use of body cameras, to limit enforcement activities at locations like schools and hospitals, and require officers to identify themselves.
So, if you’re willing to make those changes, what’s the harm in legislating them?
THOMAS HOMAN: We already made those changes. We already made those changes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But why not put them in law then, if you’re already…
(CROSSTALK)
THOMAS HOMAN: Matter of fact, matter of fact, the bill – the bill – the bill they’re holding up right now actually gives $120 million to buy more cameras.
I have already talked to them. They want to – they want to, you know, talk about policy and legislative policy. Look, if they want to change the law, change the law. We’re enforcing laws they enacted, because I told them…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, they are trying to write new law.
THOMAS HOMAN: Name – give me – no, give me – give me one instance. And there’s not one Democratic lawmaker that can give me one example, one, a single one, where ICE arrested an illegal alien inside of a hospital. When have we ever arrested an illegal alien inside of a church?
The only one that violated the sanctuary of a church was Don Lemon and that group. You know, we – we have not made those arrests. And even though we don’t have a sensitive location policy, the men and women of ICE have common sense. They don’t go into schools.
Now, make – I want to make a caveat here. If you’re a significant public safety threat and national security threat, you have no sanctuary. But they – they can’t point to one instance where ICE has made arrests in those what they call sensitive locations.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, but there was a policy change in January 2025, where the Trump administration said they weren’t going to be – you know, have their hands tied in terms of those sensitive locations.
So – so that was a shift.
THOMAS HOMAN: Because – because – because, as I said, a significant public safety threat or national security threat does not have a sanctuary in this country. We’re going to find them. We’re going to arrest them.
However, you can’t point to one instance when we actually went into a church and school, because we try very hard to wait for people to leave places. We wait for them. We arrest them in their home or arrest them in their community. We try very hard not to go into those sensitive locations because we know there’s an issue there.
So that’s what I have been telling the members on the Hill. As far as body cameras, the first thing I did in Minneapolis is bring many body cameras there, so everybody had a body camera.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
THOMAS HOMAN: There is a plan in place right now for CBP and ICE to go body cameras across the entire agency. However, the money to do that is sitting with the Congress fighting over the shutdown.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
Well, one of the policy changes has to do with warrants, requiring specifically ICE to secure a judicial warrant from a judge before entering a home to make an arrest. And that would be a change to the current ICE policy of relying on some administrative warrants. Listen to the DHS secretary during his confirmation hearing.
(Begin VT)
MARKWAYNE MULLIN (U.S. Homeland Security Secretary): I said, we will not enter a home or a place of business without a judicial warrant, unless we’re pursuing the individual that runs into a place of business or a residence – or a – or a house.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, the secretary agreed to that change. When does that take place?
THOMAS HOMAN: Look, I – I think we’re already in discussions on that.
You know, there are certain sections of law on a Section I-205, where it’s legally – you are legally able to enter a home. And a district court has – – has upheld that. But these are discussions we’re having right now.
I’m talking – I talk to Secretary Markwayne Mullin every day, several times a day. We’re talking with members of the White House. We’re already working all these policies, not really policy and how we – it’s about execution.
Again, the laws are the laws. If they don’t like the law to allow us entry into the home, then change the law. But it’s also they want an arrest warrant to just arrest an illegal alien. There’s nothing in federal law says that. Matter of fact, the law that Congress wrote says you can arrest an illegal alien with an administrative warrant.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
THOMAS HOMAN: That’s what the federal statute says.
Again, but they want – they want judicial warrants just to arrest an illegal alien. They’re asking for changes in policy that’s really about changes in the law. Again, if they don’t like what ICE is doing, they can change the law.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
THOMAS HOMAN: It’s that simple.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, I appreciate your argument about changing the law. There are many who would like to. But there’s also the question of interpretation of existing law.
And the acting ICE director, Todd Lyons, had sent a memo in May saying: “DHS counsel reinterpreted existing law to allow for agents to make arrests without a judicial warrant.”
When we heard the new secretary say they won’t enter without a judicial warrant, was Secretary Mullin stating the current policy? Are you changing the Trump policy going forward from where it was in May?
THOMAS HOMAN: I’m not going to speak for Secretary Mullin, but I think he was clear he’s looking at it. He wasn’t the secretary when he made that statement. I think he’s looking forward.
But one of the first things I did, I have asked for a full legal review on that reinterpretation. I want to know exactly what – I’m not a – I’m not a lawyer, but I have asked DOJ to do a full review on that, and we’ll see where it comes. But I think Secretary Mullin meant what he said. I think he is looking toward the future.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, we will see where they land.
Mr. Homan, thank you very much for your time this morning.
Face the Nation will be back in a minute. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We go now to the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, Congressman Jim Himes, who joins us from Greenwich, Connecticut.
Good morning to you.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES (D-Connecticut): Good morning, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you just heard the border czar, the White House representative here, make his argument.
Politically speaking, though, I mean, the shutdown was intended by Democrats to try to constrain ICE and how it had been acting. But, practically speaking, ICE is already funded. In fact, it’s one of the few DHS entities where people are getting paid because they had so much funding from the president’s last bill.
And now their portfolio is expanding because they’re in American airports across the country. So what did Democrats get out of this standoff?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: Yes, well, Margaret, the standoff is not done yet, right?
The president is illegally paying, apparently, TSA agents. You had the Senate, as you pointed out, with Mr. Honan – Homan – pass a bipartisan bill unanimously in the United States Senate to say, look, let’s fund everybody else, and let’s deal with this thorny issue about ICE.
And then you had the Republican House say, hell, no, we’re not doing that, and, by the way, mock their own Republican leaders in the Senate. So, look, what – this thing is still very much live for one very simple reason. We can talk about House, Senate, changing law.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: For one very simple reason, which is that the vast majority of Americans look at the way ICE behaved, with the murder of two American citizens, with the constant knocking down of doors of American citizens without warrants, people dressed like they are, you know, airlifting into Fallujah to do the legitimate work…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: … of going after illegal aliens in this country, and they say, that is not OK. And that’s our position.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So…
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: Our position is very simply, we want ICE to act like the police force that they are.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: And that – that fight is not won yet.
And, look, I’m sorry it got tied up. I’m sorry that the Republicans on one side of the Capitol said this was a good idea, and on the other side of the Capitol, they called it a joke.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: But we’re ready to negotiate around something that is not a radical demand.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: We just want ICE to act like proper police officers.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, in the meantime, the president’s redirecting existing funding to pay TSA agents. You said he was illegally paying them. You believe that he is violating the law in this interpretation that the White House says they have?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: Well, it’s not that I believe it. It’s that I know it, right?
I mean, if there’s one power that Congress has, it is the power of the purse. Now, this president has, of course, consistently and universally said that he in fact has that power.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So they shouldn’t be paid?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: But any American that went through fourth grade civics – no, they should be paid.
This – they should have never been held hostage. And we had a deal come out unanimously from the Senate that, if it had passed, right now, they would be getting paid.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: And we wouldn’t be talking about the constitutional power of the purse. But Mike Johnson, leader of the House of Representatives, said hell no to what his Republicans in the Senate said yes to.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So there were three Democrats, though, who got on board with Speaker Johnson, the House version of this bill, even without any new accountability measures in it.
Congresswoman Gluesenkamp Perez says she did so because she thinks it’s wrong not to pay people for their work and Democrats had set unattainable goals. She says, since the White House was agreeing to things like body cameras – doesn’t she have a point here that there is, as she put it, ideological purity that’s getting in the way of working people?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: So, this is not a question of ideological purity.
And I agree with Marie on one point, which is the people shouldn’t be held hostage. And we can come back to that. But this is not extreme demands, by any stretch of the imagination. Again, we’re asking that guys not dress like Navy SEALs when they go into Minneapolis. We’re asking that they wear badges, the way every other police officer does, that they have warrants when they break down doors.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And some of those things have been agreed to.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: This is not ideological purity. This is basic adherence to the law.
Yes, well, OK, so it’s all agreed to, let’s pass the law which codifies it, because you know what? We don’t trust the president when he says, OK, no masks, any more than we trust him when he says, oh, well, now I’m negotiating with the Iranians, when he’s not, right?
So, if this is so easy, fine, let’s codify it into law. But they’re not – you know, they’re not willing to do that. Now, where Marie is right – and this is important – we have gotten too used to using shutdowns as a mechanism of getting what we want legislatively.
And what that implies is that people like TSA agents…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: … or folks that work in the federal government for the Department of Agriculture or something don’t get paid when one party throws a tantrum, right?
Now, in this case, I happen to believe that the American people believe – you know, are with the Democratic Party and saying, you don’t get to act like ICE acted in Minneapolis. But we do need to get away from legislating through shutdown.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: That is not consonant with the great country that we are.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, and they just want their airports and basic government to work.
But on the point you raised, you said that the president’s not really negotiating with Iran. Is that because you haven’t been briefed as a member of Congress on the diplomacy, or you think he’s flat-out lying?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: Oh, I think he’s flat-out lying.
Last Sunday, when he was told – and, by the way, we’re in exactly the same position today, you know, oil prices now $112 a barrel, and, you know, futures in the stock market down 2 percent. Last Sunday, he realized, oh, my God, I have got a financial cataclysm on Monday. So he just made it up that they’re in negotiations with the Iranians.
Look, underneath that statement, the Iranians have now realized that they have the reins. They are controlling the Strait of Hormuz.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: Gasoline prices are up more than $1 a gallon, and so the Iranians realize, holy smokes, we’ve got a lot of leverage here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: In Islamabad today, there are a number of mediators who are in contact with the United States saying they’re talking about Iran, but neither the United States nor Iran are at that table at this moment in time.
But, further on the Iran point, I know you care about what’s happening in Ukraine. Notably, President Zelenskyy of Ukraine has been in the Gulf in these past few days. And he said yesterday that Russia is providing satellite imagery to Iran, and that imagery consists of U.S. military bases.
He also said Russia is giving signals intelligence and electronic intelligence to Iran. Do you know of evidence that Russia is actively helping Iran in its war against the United States?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: Well, I have to be a little careful about this, Margaret, because I do review the intelligence, and I obviously can’t speak about things that are classified.
But, boy, I would sure not argue with President Zelenskyy on that point. And I would ask the American people to think about, what do you think Putin is doing right now? Over four years, we have been, rightly, in my estimation, helping the Ukrainians exact a terrible toll on the Russians.
So what do you think is happening? Meanwhile, as you know, we are letting the Iranians – so now the Iranians are getting billions of dollars – sell their oil to the Chinese, so that they can buy drones from the Russians. We’re letting the Russians sell oil so that they can get dollars to attack the Ukrainians and use those dollars to attack – to help attack our troops.
I mean, you just couldn’t make this stuff up in a Hollywood script.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, Secretary Rubio was asked about the degree of aid Russia is giving to Iran, and he minimized it. He says it’s not making a difference on the battlefield.
I know the French, I know the British have said that Russia and Iran are helping each other on drones here. When you heard Secretary Rubio’s statement, what did you think he meant?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: I think it is very much in Marco Rubio’s interest, as one of the chief cheerleaders of this war that the American people are now coming to realize is a catastrophe, another quagmire, for Marco Rubio to say things like, oh, they’re not making a difference.
Well, I don’t agree with Marco Rubio on that point. You know, the Russians have capabilities…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: … things like using basic satellite technology, which you can do commercially, by the way…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: … to find our aircraft carriers.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: Our military bases in the region, Margaret, right now are supposedly uninhabitable. Why do you think that is?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
Before I let you go, Democrats have been making corruption a theme in their campaign against the president and to win back control of the house. Your fellow Democrat Sheila Cherfilus-McCormick of Florida has been found guilty on 25 ethics charges related to stealing millions of dollars in COVID relief money.
Should she resign? Should she be expelled?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: You know, if she doesn’t resign, there will be a vote in the House, and, you know, people will find reasons to support the congresswoman, just as Republicans found reasons to support George Santos.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Should she resign?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: And at a time when we’re at war, when gas prices are too high, that shouldn’t happen.
So I would hope that my colleague might avoid that outcome by choosing to resign. But it is also very important that both parties…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: … be consistent in punishing ethical lapses inside their own teams.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK, you hope she resigns.
Thank you, Congressman, for all your insights today. We have to leave it there.
We’ll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ll be right back with a lot more Face the Nation.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to “FACE THE NATION.”
We turn now to former U.S. surgeon general, Doctor Jerome Adams, who joins us this morning from Indianapolis.
Good morning to you, Doctor.
DOCTOR JEROME ADAMS (Former U.S. Surgeon General): Thanks for having me, Margaret.
And I’d like to start by saying that the most important thing for your viewers to understand is that American’s most pressing health threat today isn’t opioids or obesity, it’s mistrust.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
DOCTOR JEROME ADAMS: Seventy percent of Americans say they support childhood vaccines and school mandates, yet a similar majority say they do not trust health information from Robert Kennedy and say they would not trust surgeon general nominee Casey Means.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well –
DOCTOR JEROME ADAMS: So, a failure to acknowledge this plummeting trust –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
DOCTOR JEROME ADAMS: Or worse, if we’re seen to accelerate it, is going to hurt Americans. And actually, Margaret, according to Republican pollster Fabrizio Ward, it’s going to hurt Republicans in November elections.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, that’s not where is was going with the question, but, yes, I’ve seen some of the polling, and it says that the MAHA health guidance resonates more with voters than the vaccine skepticism.
DOCTOR JEROME ADAMS: Exactly.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, Republicans seem to be signaling what would be more resonant with the majority of voters.
But in terms of the policy at this moment in time, you were President Trump’s surgeon general during his first term. There are now more than 1,500 confirmed measle cases in the U.S. since January according to the CDC. There is this spike out in Utah. Why can’t the existing health infrastructure stop this?
DOCTOR JEROME ADAMS: Well, that’s a great question. And you have to start off by understanding that almost 20,000 people have been cut from HHS. And so, normally we have measles cases every year. We had about 250 in 2024. We had about 2,000 last year. As you mentioned, we’re at 1,500 already this year. But normally, we’re able to control those outbreaks because of the CDC, because of the public health infrastructure and funding. All of that has been cut. And now, instead of one case turning into two or three and being stopped, it’s turning into 20, and 50, and 100 cases. And we’re also seeing falling vaccination rates. A broad group of states are falling below that 95 percent threshold for herd immunity for measles. Utah, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, all below that 95 percent threshold. And the further we get below that, the more those outbreaks explode.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, you mentioned the memo. This was a pollster who continues to consult for the president and for Republicans, Tony Fabrizio. In the memo he writes, “policies related to vaccines and vaccine safety need to be addressed carefully and with nuance. That’s because overall a slim majority of voters are not convinced there are negative health impacts from vaccines.”
He was speaking about how MAHA and MAGA need to continue to work together for the benefit of the Republican Party. But by saying there’s a slim majority who are unconvinced, he’s making it sound like your party really is struggling with this, frankly.
DOCTOR JEROME ADAMS: Well, they absolutely are. And I understand why parents are frustrated with the healthcare system. It is not working for people. And we’ve always, as physicians, been taught to respect patient autonomy. But the difference here is, you’re seeing a health secretary and an infrastructure that is actively sowing distrust in vaccines and in the health care system.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
DOCTOR JEROME ADAMS: I believe we can do both. I believe we can respect patient’s autonomy. We need to make sure we’re facilitating those conversations between patients and their doctors or their pharmacists or nurses, while at the same time telling people what we know to be true, and that is that childhood vaccinations, like measles, mumps, rubella, are safe, they’re effective, and they’re the most important achievement in our lifetimes. We’re not going to make America healthier if we go backwards on vaccines.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, the chair of the Health Committee, Senator Bill Cassidy, who’s also a physician, asked Casey Means, she is the doctor you referenced who is the choice of the Trump administration to be the next surgeon general, he asked her whether she would recommend a mother vaccinate her child against measles? Here’s the part of the exchange from her confirmation hearing.
(BEGIN VC)
SEN. BILL CASSIDY (R-LA): If you’re the nation’s doctor, would you encourage her to have her child vaccinated?
CASEY MEANS, SURGEON GENERAL NOMINEE: I’m not an individual’s doctor. And every individual needs to talk to their doctor before putting a medication in their body. I absolutely am supportive of the measles vaccine, and I do believe vaccines save lives and are an important part of the public health strategy.
(END VC)
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, the doctor did say she’s a supporter – supportive of the measles vaccine. Why does that stop short of what you would want to hear from someone in that role?
DOCTOR JEROME ADAMS: Well, number one, I watched the hearing. This was after much pressing and equivocating, number one. And she said she’s not an individual’s doctor. That is correct. But you’re applying to be the nation’s doctor.
For me, this isn’t personal or political. Number one, and I’ve talked to you about this, it’s about her not having the basic qualifications to do the job. She does not have an active medical license and would be the first surgeon general ever to be in the role to not have an active medical license.
But beyond that, to the points you brought up, in the midst of a massive measles outbreak, America needs a surgeon general who can clearly stand behind vaccines. When I came in, we had the opioid epidemic and an overdose crisis.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
DOCTOR JEROME ADAMS: Imagine if I had said, you know, as surgeon general, it’s not my place to tell people to take naloxone, the opioid overdose reversal agent. They should talk to their doctor about it. That would not be acceptable in that circumstances and it’s not acceptable to have a surgeon general who equivocates on vaccines, much less one who can’t actually practice medicine and meet the qualifications to be a physician in the corp.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, the doctor apparently has an inactive medical license that she says she voluntarily placed on inactive status.
And I want to talk about this because it seems a feature, not a bug, right, because the HHS secretary has described Dr. Means as being perfect for this job. He says, “the surgeon general is a symbol of moral authority who stands against the financial and institutional gravities that corporatize medicine.” H said she was a great student and surgical resident but she left traditional medicine because patients weren’t getting better and that’s why she should be the disrupter in this moment.
So, when you say there’s distrust, how do you respond to those who say disruption is the purpose of this selection?
DOCTOR JEROME ADAMS: Well, again, number one, a recent “Axios” poll came out and that poll showed that 68 percent of people who were questioned said they would not trust health advise from a surgeon general Casey Means. So, you’re not going to restore trust if preemptively the public is telling you, we’re not trusting the person you’re putting forward.
And again, I don’t want to underplay this. Every physician, every nurse, every pharmacist in the public health service corp has to maintain an active license. I had to fire people for not having an active medical license. So, this is not about disruption. Casey Means can be a part of this administration. She can advise the White House.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
DOCTOR JEROME ADAMS: She can advise Secretary Kennedy, as her brother does. But that does not mean she’s qualified to be surgeon general of the United States after dropping out of her residency and not having an active license.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. And just a note, there is also no Senate confirmed CDC director currently amidst the crisis.
Let me ask you about social media as well, because there were these big cases this past week. A New Mexico jury found that Meta platforms violated consumer protection laws by misleading users about the safety of Facebook, of Instagram and WhatsApp. Out in California there was another lawsuit linking Meta to a young woman’s depression.
As a doctor, are you convinced that social media has a direct link to health?
DOCTOR JEROME ADAMS: As a doctor and as a parent I’m convinced of these facts. I have three teenage kids. We know, based on Surgeon General Murphy’s report, that there is an increasing and very valid evidence out there showing links between social media use, particularly at a younger age, and increasing anxiety, increasing depression, less sleep, which actually leads to mental health problems and also obesity.
And so, we need to, as a society, understand the harms that are coming from social media, similarly to the harms that surgeon generals have pointed out before coming from cigarettes. We also need to, similar to cigarettes, point out the fact that these substances, meaning social media platforms, are incredibly addictive, and we’re hearing again in these – in these lawsuits that they were specifically designed to addict children, again, the way cigarette manufacturers tried to addict children back in the day.
So, I’m happy that we’re having a conversation about this. The policy is going to be hard, but Australia has already done it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
DOCTOR JEROME ADAMS: They’ve banned social media for people under 16. You have 25 states, I believe, that are – that are to the point where they’re discussing or have legislation, keeping social media and phones out of schools. And we need to really understand the harm that’s occurring to our children because of this unfettered access to screen time and social media.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Before I let you go, Secretary Kennedy spoke to the Conservative Political Action Conference yesterday. He said he’s worried about cell phones and recommends parents don’t let their kids sleep with phones beside the bed. Would you agree with that recommendation?
DOCTOR JEROME ADAMS: Yes. Actually, AAP, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Health Department of California, all say that we should not allow cell phones in children’s bedrooms. It keeps them up at night. It subjects then to bullying constantly. And, yes, it is a good practice, and I agree with the secretary on this. I want to find common ground with the secretary. This is one place where we agree, we should not be exposing young people to cell phones and social media, particularly in their bedrooms at night.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right, Doctor, thank you for your insights today.
We’ll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: For more on the ongoing war in Iran, we’re joined by Iran policy analyst Karim Sadjadpour, as well as former CENTCOM commander and CBS News contributor, retired General Frank McKenzie, who joins us this morning from Tampa.
Good morning to you both.
Karim, let me start with you.
Today, in Islamabad, you have Pakistan, Turkey, Egypt, these self-acclaimed mediators gathered together to talk about how to deescalate the war. Iran, so far, hasn’t responded to the 15 points the Trump administration put forward. And Rubio said he’s not even sure who they’d be negotiating with. So, what is the reality of who we’re negotiating with and are we even negotiating?
KARIM SADJADPOUR (Senior Fellow, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace): Well, Margaret, this is a regime, the Islamic Republic of Iran, which came into power in 1979, taking American diplomats hostage, and now they think they have the global economy hostage. And they’re fighting a war of survival. They’re also fighting a war of revenge against President Trump.
So, at the moment, they don’t feel compelled to compromise, it seems, because the trend lines are oil prices are going up, American public opinion about the war is going down, and many of these leaders that we’re hoping to negotiate with are, right now, living underground, fighting for their lives.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, to your point on that difference, that asymmetric difference in power, General, I want to bring you in here because one of the things that Iran had been waiting to do was activate its militias, or the militias it supports in Yemen, the Houthis. Over the weekend, they jumped in the fight and fired on Israel. Do you think this is a game- changer given that they could, not just disrupt the Strait of Hormuz, but another passageway through the Red Sea?
GENERAL FRANK MCKENZIE (Ret.): Margaret, I don’t think it will be a game changer. Their ability to attack Israel is quite limited. Yes, they will have the ability to further stop, slow traffic through the Bab-el-Mandeb, going up into the Suez Canal. We have the ability to go down there and prevent that. It will require additional resources, but we have those resources and we can certainly do it if that becomes necessary.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, the president has made clear that he needs to reopen the Strait of Hormuz. His language has been contradictory on some of these points as to who’s going to do it and when. What’s the military reality of making it passable?
GENERAL FRANK MCKENZIE: We’re on our way to doing that now, Margaret. This is a part of a plan that’s been in existence for many years. What we’re doing right now is we’re reducing Iranian ability to target ships in the strait through their short-range missiles, their drones and other activities. We do that by maintaining air superiority over southern Iran on a 24/7 basis, looking for where these missiles are and striking them relentlessly.
Once we reduce those to a very low level, then you’ll be able to go in, if necessary, sweep the mines. I’m not certain they put mines in the water yet. I predict eventually they will. It’s their nature.
But we have the ability to do this. We’re on – we’re on plan. I’ll be honest with you, Margaret, I’ve simulated this many years and many places at Central Command. We’re a little further along than we would have expected to be at this point, in all the simulations that I’ve seen.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m going to guess, in your simulations, you looked at what would happen in the Strait of Hormuz, even though the president said no one ever thought of it. You thought of it, didn’t you?
GENERAL FRANK MCKENZIE: The U.S. military thinks of a lot of things. We certainly have thought of the Strait of Hormuz.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
GENERAL FRANK MCKENZIE: Thought of Kharg Island. Think of all those islands on the southern lateral of Iran.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Karim, the president said the Israelis killed the second tier pragmatist types that he had thought he might be able to go and negotiate with. In recent days, the name that has emerged is the parliament speaker, Ghalibaf. What do we know about him? Is he someone you can make a deal with?
KARIM SADJADPOUR: Ghalibaf is importantly a former senior Revolutionary Guard commander and a close adviser to Mojtaba Khamenei. Under different circumstances, he is someone who aspires to be Iran’s modern strongman leader. I have actually met him in the World Economic Forum in Davos. Just the fact that he shows up in Davos –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
KARIM SADJADPOUR: Shows you a little bit about his world view.
But under the current circumstances, no one in that Iranian system is capable of changing the long-time ideology of antipathy toward America and toward Israel, even if they wanted to.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Explain that, if you would. Because what we hear from the White House and from Israel is that pressure will break them. You’re saying they’re unbreakable?
KARIM SADJADPOUR: At the moment, and this could change in the future, but we haven’t seen any cracks in the regime’s resolve. We haven’t seen any cracks in the cohesion of its security forces. And given the fact that so many of its top officials, including the supreme leader, have been killed, it’s a regime which is not prepared to compromise or change its ideology. They actually believe that antipathy towards America is part of their identity. And if you capitulate on that, it actually doesn’t prolong your shelf life, it actually could hasten your death.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, if there’s not a negotiated settlement, how does this end?
KARIM SADJADPOUR: I don’t see any possibility of a resolution to this conflict. I think the U.S. and Iran are miles apart when it comes to their goals here.
Now, I think we could see a potential ceasefire that opens the Strait of Hormuz, which would shift us back from a hot war back to a cold war, but there’s no possibility, in my view, so long as this regime is in power, of a U.S. Iran normalization.
MARGARET BRENNAN: General, do you agree with that assessment? I mean it does seem that the Trump administration is acknowledging the regime will stay if they are at least offering to negotiate with the regime, so it would allow for them to remain in power.
GENERAL FRANK MCKENZIE: The primary goal of Iranian statecraft, Margaret, is survival of the regime. Back in the late 1980s, they signed a truce with Iraq when things were going very bad for Iran. In Iranian history it’s known as drinking from the poison chalice. I believe that they will break. I believe that they will come to terms. And it may be an imperfect solution, but I think it would be one that would include opening the Strait of Hormuz, possibly some deal on the missiles – on the missile systems. The nuclear program is certainly a possibility. But I believe eventually they’ll make a deal. But we need to keep the pressure up. We need to continue to pressure them very hard because that is, in fact, the only thing they will respond to.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, the president had posted he’s postponed the deadline to open the Strait of Hormuz as a result of the Iranian government asking for it. He says he’s shifted that to April 6th at 8:00 p.m.
We also hear from the secretary of state that he’s talking to the allies about a post conflict necessity of having other countries help to essentially police the strait. And he said that you will need tankers to have military escorts. So, this doesn’t sound like this is a short-term project. This sounds like, even if combat ends, we’re going to be talking about a military presence in the region for some time. Am I wrong?
GENERAL FRANK MCKENZIE: Margaret, you could be right. Let’s see what happens. I think a negotiate – that are two ways the Strait of Hormuz can be opened. It can be opened if the Iranians negotiate with us to open it. And, of course, that’s the desired solution.
The other solution would be if they don’t and they decide to fight. We can open the strait under that condition too.
The second condition is obviously a lot more intensive in terms of ships and equipment that we’d have to bring into the region. And, yes, help from our allies would certainly be – would be very useful in that case.
We have the ability to open the Strait of Hormuz under any condition that the Iranians choose to exist under.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Does it appear to you that one of the contingencies that the White House is planning for, given that they’re continuing to move troops into the region, and you have these Marines who are moving into the area as well, are they preparing for a ground troop presence? And what does that look like?
GENERAL FRANK MCKENZIE: Margaret, for many years we’ve considered options along the southern coast of Iran, seizing islands, seizing small bases. Typically raids. And a raid is an operation with a planned withdrawal. You’re not going to stay. But some of those islands you could seize and hold. That would have a couple effects. First of all, it would be profoundly humiliating for Iran and would give us great weight in negotiations. The second, the example of Kharg Island, which everyone talks about, if you seize Kharg Island, you really can shut down the Iranian oil economy completely. And the beauty of seizing it is, you’re not destroying it. You’re retaining it for further use by the global economy and possibly for return to Iran under certain conditions.
So, all of these things – this is not back of the – these are not back of the envelope calculations. These are things we’ve been working on for many years. And I think we’re right to threaten the entire atola, to hold all these options out there. And I think the president’s message is spot on when he talks about all these alternatives.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But can he achieve his goals without ground troops, which is what the secretary of state says, and how does this end? How do you call this a success?
GENERAL FRANK MCKENZIE: Sure. I think a success looks like the Strait of Hormuz is open. We get some kind of deal on the ballistic missile program, some kind of deal on the nuclear program. That’s probably about as much as you could hope for. But I think there are very discreet things that for me at least, from an operational military perspective, would be – would look like victory.
I believe all of those things are actually within our grasp. We just need to continue. Iran will ultimately respond to the use of force. They know and understand it perhaps better than we have – we have in the past. This administration’s willing to use force. Other administrations have been thoroughly deterred by Iran. President Trump is not deterred by Iran.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. Well, the president says he wants a deal, even though, I know, you think that’s going to be pretty hard to get to.
GENERAL FRANK MCKENZIE: Well –
MARGARET BRENNAN: And he said Vice President Vance is going to be directly involved here, Karim. What does that signal to you?
KARIM SADJADPOUR: Well, the Iranians actually want to negotiate with Vice President Vance for a couple of reasons. Number one, they think he comes from the anti-war wing of the Republican Party. And number two, they think because of the fact that J.D. Vance wants to run for president, he’s incentivized to want to wrap this war up pretty quick.
And I agree with something General McKenzie said, which is, we know over the last five decades that this regime is only compromised under really clear circumstances, when it faces existential pressure, coupled with a clear, diplomatic exit. I think it’s feeling existential pressure. I don’t think it – they’ve yet seen a clear, diplomatic exit.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, gentlemen, thank you both for lending us your expertise for this conversation. We’ll have to leave it there.
SADJADPOUR: Thank you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ll be back in a moment.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: This week could mark the beginning of a new era for human space flight. NASA’s Artemis II mission is scheduled to launch on April 1st, carrying four astronauts in a loop around the moon before they return to earth ten days later. The crew, three Americans and one Canadian, includes the first woman, the first person of color, and the first Canadian expected to travel to the moon. It’s the first crewed lunar mission in more than 50 years. And if all goes according to plan, you can see full coverage here on CBS News and next Sunday on “FACE THE NATION.”
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MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s it for us today. Thank you all for watching. Until next week. For “FACE THE NATION,” I’m Margaret Brennan.
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