2026-02-08T13:02:27-0500 / 哥伦比亚广播公司新闻
2026年2月8日 / 美国东部时间下午1:02 / 哥伦比亚广播公司新闻
以下是2026年2月8日在《面对国家》节目中播出的对大卫·贝克尔的采访实录。大卫·贝克尔是选举创新与研究中心主任，同时也是哥伦比亚广播公司新闻的选举法专家。
*
玛格丽特·布伦南：我们现在请到的嘉宾是大卫·贝克尔。他是选举创新与研究中心的执行董事，同时也是哥伦比亚广播公司新闻的选举法专家。很高兴您能来到这里，大卫。
大卫·贝克尔：很高兴再次回到节目中，玛格丽特。
玛格丽特·布伦南：我想就节目中提到的几个问题展开讨论。华纳参议员表达了一些民主党人的担忧，他认为特朗普总统正在为破坏即将到来的选举或在某种程度上干涉选举做铺垫。事实上，在节目期间，总统正在推特上称美国选举是被操纵的、窃取的，并且在全世界范围内成为笑柄。您如何看待这些言论？两党是否都在削弱民众对我们选举的信心？您接触到的选举官员现在有什么感受和想法？
大卫·贝克尔：是的，很难预测事情会如何发展。——
玛格丽特·布伦南：——是的。——
大卫·贝克尔：——但我们可以看看已经发生的事情。总统签署了一项史无前例的关于选举的行政命令，试图向各州规定政策。但该命令已被三个不同的联邦法院禁止，即被驳回。他的司法部正在寻求数亿美国选民的高度敏感数据，并起诉了24个州和华盛顿特区。就在过去几周，两个联邦法院刚刚驳回了这一请求，其余的诉讼仍在等待审理。华纳参议员提到的网络安全机制，在特朗普第一任总统任期内建立起来以协助选举官员，如今已被解散。所以当我与选举官员交谈时，他们对此非常担忧。可以肯定地说，这是前所未有的。我们从未见过一位总统试图像这样对各州的选举行使行政权力。当然，这与宪法相抵触，宪法在第一条第四款（选举条款）中明确将选举管理的权力授予各州。国会也可以采取行动，如果国会采取行动，当然这些法律会被遵守。但在过去五六年里，两党都试图通过全面的法案，但都失败了。
玛格丽特·布伦南：正如您刚才指出的，宪法规定是各州——
大卫·贝克尔：——对。——
玛格丽特·布伦南：——负责管理这些选举。但总统——我想播放一下他说的话，让公众听听——他在过去一周至少三次表示，他希望共和党将投票问题全国化，并接管15个州的投票程序。我们来听一下。
（开始视频片段）
唐纳德·特朗普总统：看看底特律，看看宾夕法尼亚州，看看费城，你去看看亚特兰大，看看一些地方——选举中的可怕腐败。联邦政府不应该允许这种情况发生。联邦政府应该介入。这些是联邦政府的代理人来计算选票。如果他们不能合法诚实地计算选票，那么应该由其他人来接管。
记者：但是宪法——
（视频片段结束）
玛格丽特·布伦南：那么，是什么阻止总统做您刚才告诉我们的违宪行为呢？
大卫·贝克尔：嗯，总统可能会试图采取行动，这就是为什么很难准确预测会发生什么，但法院一直非常坚定地限制宪法规定的行政权力。就在几天前，俄勒冈州的一家地区法院做出了裁决，拒绝了司法部获取俄勒冈州高度敏感选民数据的请求。法院明确表示，宪法的规定非常明确。开国元勋们专门规定，联邦政府只有在国会采取行动时才能介入选举。各州拥有管理选举的权力，并且明确将行政部门排除在这一权力之外。他们非常担心行政部门（总统）会试图通过夺取选举机制来巩固比宪法赋予的更多的权力。
玛格丽特·布伦南：所以我想和您讨论另外两个问题。白宫删除了我们刚刚讨论的国会议员冈萨雷斯的视频。焦点集中在视频中带有种族主义的部分，这部分内容受到了广泛谴责。在这段视频之前，冈萨雷斯议员为其辩护的部分是关于选举软件和安全的。当您听到这段视频时，您会听到关于技术问题的描述，以及演讲者所说的异常情况，比如在2025年关键州在特定时间停止计票。您能帮我们核实一下这些说法吗？
大卫·贝克尔：是的，这是那些散布选举谎言的人常用的方法，他们试图将所有不实信息抛出，看哪些能被相信。而视频中除了结尾部分外，其余内容也令人不安，因为其中充满了虚假信息，完全是谎言。在美国，我们使用纸质选票。98%的美国人通过纸质选票投票。唯一的例外是路易斯安那州，该州正在转向纸质选票。这意味着这些纸质选票可以与机器计票结果进行核对，并且确实会进行核对。值得注意的是，在佐治亚州，2020年的纸质选票被三次不同的方式计算，其中一次完全是手工计票。超过500万张选票在五天内由人工计票，并且有双方竞选团队和观察员在场监督。事实上，2020年是美国历史上最受审查的选举，这一点无法回避。每次法院审查时，每次那些谎称选举舞弊的人被起诉时，选举官员的工作都经受住了审查。这真的很了不起。我们——我们的选举不仅没有被操纵，而且比以往任何时候都更加透明、可验证和安全，无论你是否喜欢选举结果。而我们看到，这种虚假信息正在被传播，在这个案例中，传播者是美国总统，目标是他自己的支持者以及其他可能不喜欢选举结果的人。不幸的是，有些人相信了这些谎言。
玛格丽特·布伦南：这很不寻常，因为总统赢得了选举，共和党也赢得了上一次选举。所以当他现在说这个系统突然坏了的时候，似乎在选举他的时候这个系统是有效的，但在2020年他失败的时候却不奏效了。从常识角度来看，这似乎是矛盾的。
大卫·贝克尔：您说得完全正确。
玛格丽特·布伦南：但从事实角度来看，您说这些事实已经被反复验证。但是您刚才提到的富尔顿县的选票，我们有FBI探员的随身摄像头录像显示他们去取走了选票。为什么FBI现在要取走选票？国家情报局局长为什么会在那里，他们会用这些选票做什么？
大卫·贝克尔：这是个很好的问题，而且目前还没有得到回答。首先，2020年没有发生犯罪行为。那些选票已经被多次计票和审查。我们确切地知道2020年佐治亚州发生了什么。乔·拜登以相对微弱的11,779票优势赢得了该州。在2024年，唐纳德·特朗普赢得了该州。民主党人不可能在卸任白宫后，在2020年神奇地窃取选举，却在2024年他们重新执政时忘记使用这种权力。我们确切地知道发生了什么。如果对这些选票进行真实、诚实的审查，结果会证实当时的选举结果，就像“网络忍者”团队审查亚利桑那州马里科帕县的选票时一样，他们发现了完全相同的结果。至于国家情报局局长出现在富尔顿县，没有合理的理由让一位高级政治任命官员在执行搜查令时出现在那里。该搜查令存在诸多缺陷，随身摄像头录像显示了这一点。他们最初出现时地址就有错误，不得不回去重新获取更正后的搜查令。另外，还有一个问题，即诉讼时效。根据联邦法律，针对搜查令中提到的任何犯罪行为，诉讼时效为五年。这两个具体的法律条款的诉讼时效已经过期。所以我不确定为什么治安法官会批准这样的搜查令。我们也不知道国家情报局局长为什么会在富尔顿县的一个当地选举仓库里。我们听到了不同的解释。首先，副检察长说她只是恰好出现在亚特兰大。我不确定这是否特别可信。——
玛格丽特·布伦南：——是的。——
大卫·贝克尔：——然后是总统——
玛格丽特·布伦南：——对。——
大卫·贝克尔：——然后我们听说总统指示了她，之后司法部长邦迪也指示了她。我们完全不知道实际发生了什么。
玛格丽特·布伦南：我们核实过，根据哥伦比亚广播公司的标准，至少有九位特朗普政府的高级官员对2020年选举的合法性或完整性表示怀疑。这个数字不包括美国总统本人。大卫·贝克尔，谢谢您。——
大卫·贝克尔：——谢谢您，玛格丽特。——
玛格丽特·布伦南：我们稍后回来。
Transcript: David Becker on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan,” Feb. 8, 2026
2026-02-08T13:02:27-0500 / CBS News
February 8, 2026 / 1:02 PM EST / CBS News
The following is the transcript of the interview with David Becker, executive director of the Center for Election Innovation and Research and a CBS News election law contributor, that aired on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” on Feb. 8, 2026.
*
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’re joined now by David Becker. He is the Executive Director of the Center for Election Innovation and Research and a CBS News election law contributor. Always good to have you here, David.
DAVID BECKER: Great to be back with you, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to pick up on a few things that have come up in the program. Senator Warner voiced what some Democrats are concerned about, arguing that President Trump is laying the groundwork to undermine the upcoming election or interfere in it in some way. And, in fact, during the program the President is tweeting about American elections being rig– rigged, stolen and a laughing stock all around the world. What do you think of these statements here? Are both parties undermining confidence in our election? What do election officials that you speak to feel and think right now?
DAVID BECKER: Yeah, it’s very hard to predict where this is going. —
MARGARET BRENNAN: — Yeah. —
DAVID BECKER: — But we can look at what’s happened already. The President has signed an unprecedented executive order regarding elections trying to dictate policy to the states. That’s now been enjoined, blocked by three different federal courts. His Department of Justice is seeking highly sensitive data on hundreds of millions of American voters, is suing 24 states and D.C. Two federal courts just in the past few weeks have blocked that. The remainder are still to be heard. The cyber security apparatus that Senator Warner talked about, that had been built up under the first Trump administration to assist election officials, has been dismantled. So when I talk to election officials, they’re very concerned about this. I think it’s safe to say this is unprecedented. We have never seen a president try to exert executive authority over elections in the states like we have. And of course this is contrary to the Constitution, which specifically grants states the authority to run elections under Article 1, Section 4, the elections clause. Congress can also act, and if Congress does, of course, those laws will be followed. But both parties have tried to pass sweeping bills in the last five or six years and have failed.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So the Constitution, as you just point out, states it is the states —
DAVID BECKER: — Right. —
MARGARET BRENNAN: — who are going to run these elections. But the President — I want to play what he said so the public hears it — he has at least three times in the past week said he wants the Republican Party to nationalize voting and take over voting procedures in 15 states. Take a listen.
(Begin VT)
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Take a look at Detroit, take a look at Pennsylvania, take a look at Philadelphia, you go take a look at Atlanta, look at some of the places that — horrible corruption on elections. And the federal government should not allow that. The federal government should get involved. These are agents of the federal government to count the votes. If they can’t count the votes legally and honestly, then somebody else should take over.
REPORTER: But the Constitution —
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: So what would prevent the president from doing something you just told us is unconstitutional?
DAVID BECKER: Well, the President might try to act and that’s why it’s so hard to predict exactly what’s going to happen, but the courts have been very firm on holding the limits of executive power under the Constitution. There was just a court decision a couple of days ago from the state of Oregon, a district court there, that denied DOJ access to this highly sensitive voter data that they were seeking from Oregon. And specifically said, again, that the Constitution is clear. The founders carved out elections specially to say the federal government can only act if Congress acts. The states have the authority and they expressly excluded the executive from that at all. They were very concerned about the excesses of an executive, a president, who would seek to consolidate more power than the Constitution granted by seizing the mechanisms of elections.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So two other things I want to run through with you. The White House took down that video that we were just discussing with Congressman Gonzalez. The focus has been on the racist portion of it, which was widely condemned. The video leading up to it that Congressman Gonzalez defended was about election software and security. In that, when you listen to it, you hear descriptions of problems with technology and things that the speaker says were anomalies, like in 2025 key states stopped counting at a certain time. Can you fact check some of this for us?
DAVID BECKER: Yeah, this is a very common methodology for those that are spreading lies about the elections, defying, just throw everything against the wall and see what sticks. And the rest of that video, in addition to the ending, was also troubling because it was a lot of disinformation, just blatantly false. We have paper ballots in the United States. 98% of all Americans vote on paper ballots. The only exclusion is the state of Louisiana, which is moving to paper ballots. That means those paper ballots can be checked against whatever the machines tally, and they are checked. Famously, in Georgia, those paper ballots in 2020 were counted three times, three different ways, once entirely by hand. Over five million ballots counted by hand in five days with observation from both campaign and observers. There’s no way to get around the fact that this is the, 2020 was the most scrutinized election in American history. And every time when courts reviewed it, when people who lied about the election were taken to court, the work of election officials withstood that scrutiny. It’s really remarkable. We’re — not only are our elections not rigged, they’re as transparent and verifiable and as secure as they’ve ever been, no matter whether you like the outcome or not. And we’re seeing disinformation being spread, in this case, by the President of the United States, targeted at his own supporters, at others who might not like the outcome of elections. And, unfortunately, some are believing it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, it’s unusual because the president won the election and Republicans won the last election. So when he is saying now that suddenly the system is broken, it seemed to work when it elected him, but it didn’t work when he lost in 2020. That, that is what is contradictory in sort of just the common sense version.
DAVID BECKER: That’s exactly right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But on the facts of it, you’re saying this has actually been verified time and time again. But those ballots you just talked about from Fulton County, we have body camera footage of these FBI agents going and taking the ballots. Why would the FBI now be taking the ballots? Why was the Director of National Intelligence there and what would they do with these ballots?
DAVID BECKER: This is a great question, and it still has not been answered. First of all, there was no crime committed in 2020. Those ballots have been counted and reviewed so many times. We know exactly what happened in Georgia in 2020. Joe Biden won that state by a relatively narrow margin of 11,779 votes. In 2024, Donald Trump won that state. Democrats didn’t somehow have the magical ability, while out of the White House, to steal an election in 2020 and then forget to use that power in 2024 when they had the White House. So we know exactly what happened. If there was a true, honest review of those ballots, it will confirm exactly what the result was, just as when the cyber ninjas reviewed the Maricopa County ballots in Arizona. They found the same exact outcome. As for the Director of National Intelligence being in Fulton County, there is no viable reason to have a high level political appointee during the execution of a search warrant. That search warrant is — has many defects, as the body cam footage showed. There was a defect in the address when they first showed up. They had to go back and get a corrected search warrant. And there’s also this, this issue of the statute of limitations. There’s a five year statute of limitations under federal law for any of the crimes that they mentioned in the warrant. There were two specific statutes. That five year statute has expired by any measure, and so I’m not sure why a magistrate signed off on it. We’re not sure why the DNI was in Fulton County inside a local election warehouse. We’ve heard shifting explanations. First, the Deputy Attorney General said she happened to be in Atlanta. I don’t know that that’s particularly credible. —
MARGARET BRENNAN: — Yeah. —
DAVID BECKER: — And then the President —
MARGARET BRENNAN: — Right. —
DAVID BECKER: — Then we heard the President directed her and then Attorney General Bondi directed her. We have no idea what actually happened.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, we checked and at least nine top Trump administration officials, by CBS criteria, raised doubt about the validity or integrity of the 2020 election. That count does not include the President of the United States himself. David Becker, thank you. —
DAVID BECKER: — Thank you Margaret. —
MARGARET BRENNAN: — We’ll be back in a moment.
发表回复