文字实录：退役陆军中校威廉·斯温森与退役指挥军士长马修·威廉姆斯做客《与玛格丽特·布伦南面对面》，2026年5月24日
2026-05-24T10:30:00-0400 / 哥伦比亚广播公司新闻
以下是2026年5月24日播出的《与玛格丽特·布伦南面对面》节目中，对退役陆军中校威廉·斯温森与退役指挥军士长马修·威廉姆斯的采访实录。
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玛格丽特·布伦南： 今天我们邀请到了两位荣誉勋章获得者：退役指挥军士长马特·威廉姆斯与退役陆军中校威廉·斯温森。两人均因在阿富汗服役期间的战场英勇表现获颁勋章，非常感谢二位莅临节目。
指挥军士长马特·威廉姆斯（退役）： 谢谢。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 我们很少能邀请到拥有你们这样背景与经历的嘉宾，我们希望能聆听你们的想法。毕竟荣誉勋章的授勋评语极为不凡，我想先聊聊这个话题。国会荣誉勋章协会将这一美国军事行动中最高的英勇服役奖项描述为，代表着勇敢、勇气、牺牲、正直、深沉的爱国情怀以及始终践行正确之事的信念。这一荣誉对你们而言意味着什么？
陆军中校威廉·斯温森（退役）： 军旅生涯有一个共通之处：所有报名服役保卫国家的人，都认同我们所代表的终极理想。作为公民，我们拥有一个自由的国家，而参军服役正是报效国家的方式之一。在服役过程中，你随时可能面临巨大的生命风险。在我们的案例中，我认为我们不过是尽了本分。我们接受了恰当的训练，获得了合适的机会，但归根结底，那天我们接到指令需要完成任务，而我们采取了行动。让我们与众不同的是，我们只是做了其他任何一名军人在那种情境下都会为同袍所做的事。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 你真的这么认为？任何人都会这么做？
威尔·斯温森： 是的。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 威尔，你怎么看？这一荣誉对你而言意味着什么？
马特·威廉姆斯： 没错，威尔说得完全正确。这枚勋章本身就代表着服务、牺牲、爱国精神，以及为比自身更宏大的事物奉献的精神。我们都清楚，我们参军时正值国家亟需青年男女挺身而出的时刻，当时国家正身处伊拉克与阿富汗的两线战事之中。我特意选择了特种作战的职业道路，每次离开基地时，身边都围绕着极其优秀的同伴。那天我得到了一个机会，去照顾左右并肩的战友，这就是我当时选择去做的事。我也认同威尔的说法，我坚信与我一同服役的所有人，只要得到同样的机会，都会做出同样的选择。而勋章本身最耐人寻味的一点在于，我们的故事被记录了下来，这也是我们今天能佩戴这枚勋章站在这里的原因——就像历史上获得这一荣誉的3500多名美国人一样。但说实话，我相信每一天的战场上都有更多的英勇事迹，那些未被记录、未被讲述的故事。这才是这枚勋章真正代表的东西：它不是我和威尔，不是今天佩戴勋章的任何人，而是那些从未有机会讲述自己故事的人，或是那些牺牲后由家属在白宫以展盒代领勋章的战友。我认为这就是勋章的意义所在，这也是它如此重要的原因。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 马特，你提到你在基地外与战友并肩作战。你具体指的是什么？你是说——
马特·威廉姆斯： 每次你离开火力基地，不管是乘车、乘直升机还是执行其他任务，你都要上前线直面敌人，你必须坦然接受这一点。你必须明白，你的训练已经让你足以在战场上发挥作用，你必须信任左右的战友，相信他们会在你需要的时候挺身而出，你也会在他们需要的时候守护他们。这正是你在作战行动中发挥最大战力的方式。但我认为这比战斗本身更重要，这也是一个国家能发挥最大效能的方式：如果你愿意为身边的人服务，愿意为社区奉献，投身于比自身更宏大的事业，那么其他一切都可以暂且放下。如果仔细想想，我们其实已经没有多少值得争执的东西了。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 二位在入伍前，就已经有了投身服务类工作的规划，比如国务院或是执法部门，对吗？你们是否觉得自己天生就适合这类工作？
马特·威廉姆斯： 我先来说两句。我觉得某种程度上确实如此。我常开玩笑说，我其实从没真正长大过，从小就想当警察、加入联邦调查局，不管走哪条路都好。但这些理想、这些价值观，是我在成长过程中逐渐形成的。我的父亲一直教导我，要重视努力工作、正直诚信，做一个值得信赖的人，这一点非常重要。我很小就明白，如果你有机会、有能力，就应该去做比自身更有意义的事，要学会跳出自我中心。对我来说，那就是服务他人，而执法就是我实现这一目标的方式，那曾是我的人生目标。当然，后来我的人生轨迹发生了巨大转变，我投身了军旅。直到今天，我依然会鼓励所有人考虑参军，因为这意义重大，你能学到宝贵的经验，获得成长的机会，这会为你退役后的人生打下成功的基础。我想这也是我想对美国大多数年轻人说的话。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 据我了解，你原本也打算从事外交职业，后来9·11事件发生了。
威尔·斯温森： 9·11是我们这一代人的变革性事件。当时许多已经规划好人生道路的人都意识到，我们迎来了一个需要挺身而出、践行心中正义的时刻。无论是参军还是选择其他服务领域，我们很多人都响应了这一号召。每一代人都有属于自己的变革时刻，不一定非要通过9·11事件才能理解报效国家的意义。当时也有一些人响应了其他号召，比如去贫困地区的学校任教、在国家公园管理局工作或是从事其他各类服务工作。但对我而言，国防是当时国家最需要我们的地方，也是我认为自己最适合的岗位，最终这也成了正确的选择。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 有趣的是，我们在筹备这次访谈时发现，今年是9·11事件25周年，如今已经有25岁的年轻人成长起来，他们的生活记忆里完全没有这一事件，对吗？他们当时还太小。你会如何向这一代人解释，当年是什么激励了你，让你彻底改变人生轨迹，选择投身需要付出牺牲的事业？
威尔·斯温森： 我想说的是，即便没有这样的激励时刻，他们依然在服役。每一代人都会挺身而出，都会响应号召。只是时代不同了——
玛格丽特·布伦南： 如今现役军人仅占总人口不到1%，有过服役经历的人也仅占6%，这一群体在总人口中的占比越来越小。但你们并不为此担忧吗？
威尔·斯温森： 承担国家安全任务的军人确实只占我们国家的一小部分，这是由战争形态决定的。我们需要的军队规模更小，所需的能力和技能也有所不同。但服务依然无处不在，重申一下，服务不一定非得是参军，它的范畴很广，你可以通过任何方式报效国家、服务社区，做一个合格的公民。回到你刚才的观点，我们的军人确实只占总人口的一小部分，也背负着沉重的负担。而这一代25岁及更年轻的人，他们不需要经历9·11事件，那已经是他们历史课本中的内容。他们不需要这样的时刻才选择服役，他们清楚地知道，这个国家有值得为之奋斗的事物，有我们坚守的价值观，这也是他们投身军旅的原因。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 但你认为当下还存在这样能凝聚人心的服务动力吗？如今这个国家看起来非常分裂，至少在这个节目里，我们经常讨论这个问题。你怎么看？
马特·威廉姆斯： 我认为确实有这样的感受，这种感受是真实存在的，但我觉得它并没有看起来那么严重，也许这只是我的一厢情愿。我希望事实确实如此，希望人们能意识到，这个国家有太多值得为之奋斗、值得心怀感恩的东西。我们常常陷入纠结，过多地沉湎于过去，我们的发展轨迹并非一帆风顺。我们一路走来经历了不少波折，但我们依然是世界上最伟大的国家，依然是最自由的国度。这些都值得我们庆祝，但更重要的是要去守护它们。正如威尔所说，我刚在10月退役，最后一份职务是特种部队资格训练营的指挥军士长。我有幸见到了那些举起右手、就像20年前的我一样，加入特种作战社区的年轻人——他们参军是因为这是正确的事。他们不需要我们当年那样的额外动员来跨过参军的门槛，他们这么做只是因为觉得这是对的。我相信，这种精神依然根植于美国年轻人的心中。我希望我们能在言论和沟通方式上做得更好，这显然还有很大的改进空间，对整个国家来说都会更好。我们有太多值得庆祝、值得感恩的东西，也有太多值得为之服务的事物。只要有机会，我就会呼吁大家：我不是要求你们穿上军装扛枪上前线，我只是希望你们能成为配得上这份服务与牺牲的公民。这就是我对大家的呼吁：配得上那些25岁的年轻人愿意为你们赴汤蹈火所做出的服务与牺牲。如果你每天都能这么想，就会明白这些孩子奔赴前线是因为他们坚信这一点，他们相信自己是在为你个人而战。我想这多少会改变我们的心态，也能让我们从如今铺天盖地的言论中稍作喘息。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 坦率地说，这是看待阵亡将士纪念日的一种非常深刻的方式——这个月就要到阵亡将士纪念日了。你们会在这一天想起曾经并肩作战的战友吗？
威尔·斯温森： 毫无疑问，与我们一同服役的人，这段经历是私人且深刻的。我们认识那些为国家献出生命的人，我永远都要铭记那些为这些理想付出终极牺牲的人。我喜欢做的不仅是记住他们本人和他们的故事，还有他们的家人，确保他们的故事永远被历史铭记。因为他们的故事就是我的故事，只要我们这个国家还记得有愿意为我们服务的英雄，他们的牺牲和损失就需要被永远铭记。因此，像阵亡将士纪念日这样的日子对我们作为一个国家继续前进至关重要，让我们永远铭记人们愿意为国家付出什么。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 阵亡将士纪念日你有没有特别挂念的人？
马特·威廉姆斯： 这很难说。几乎每天都会想起一些人，有些是在战斗中牺牲的，有些则是在之后不幸离世的。我经常会想起我的队友、同为荣誉勋章获得者的罗恩·舒尔。他在战斗中幸存下来，后来在特勤局服役，担任总统反恐突击队员，最终因癌症去世——这种癌症与他在阿富汗和伊拉克战场接触的有害物质有关。他对我意义重大，不仅在我刚成为特种部队队员时是我的导师，在我获得荣誉勋章之前，他也一直是我的榜样。他始终萦绕在我的心头。而阵亡将士纪念日是一个真正停下来思考那些逝去之人的时刻，不仅是直接在战斗中牺牲的人，也包括之后离世的战友，还有那些因其他不幸遭遇和决定而离开我们的人。这就是我理解和铭记阵亡将士纪念日的方式。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 威尔，奥巴马总统在为你颁发荣誉勋章时曾说，“你让我们想起，当我们的国家处于最佳状态时，它是一个公民彼此关照、相互承担责任的国家，不仅在轻松时刻，更在艰难时刻。”在步入私人生活后，背负这样的期许是否会成为一种负担？
威尔·斯温森： 我们必须记住，战争的熔炉是残酷不公的，它既能暴露我们最不堪的一面，也能激发我们最美好的品质。在自身生命面临巨大风险的时刻，我们会做出一些难以解释的举动，也会见证近乎奇迹的场景。人们会团结成一个团队，做出一些看似不符合常规决策逻辑的事，但归根结底，他们是在为彼此、为国家而战。当我意识到自己获得了总统颁发的个人嘉奖时，我们作为荣誉勋章获得者必须铭记的一点是，我们是他人故事的使者。我们是那些未曾被讲述的故事的使者，是那些与我们一同上战场却未能归来的战友——约翰逊、约翰逊、肯尼菲克、莱顿和韦斯特布鲁克——的使者。他们的故事是我们故事的一部分。我们佩戴这枚勋章是为了代表服务精神，而不是代表我们自己。作为获奖者，我们必须牢记，我们的责任是继续讲述这些故事，不仅是我们自己的故事，还有所有与我们一同服役的人以及所有未来服役者的故事。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 这感觉很沉重。经历过这一切之后，你似乎永远都要投身公共服务了。
威尔·斯温森： 可以说，荣誉勋章获得者是美国的一个缩影。我们来自不同的城镇、城市，来自各行各业，持有不同的政治观点，最终，我们是这个国家价值观非常民主的一种体现。但作为获奖者，我们必须带着各自的背景——有的出身平凡，有的则不然——继续努力过好每一天，让自己的生活无愧于这枚勋章所代表的意义。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 我了解到你们二人都在继续努力帮助他人、服务他人，尤其是退伍军人群体。马特，特朗普总统曾评价你“展现了不屈不挠的奉献精神、坚定不移的决心和不知疲倦的忠诚”。你认为这些话是一种负担，还是余生的一项使命？你如何看待它们？
马特·威廉姆斯： 我想两者都有，但我想换个角度来解读。对我而言，这是一种荣幸。不是每个人都有机会佩戴这枚勋章，正如我之前提到的，超过50%的荣誉勋章都是追授的。所以能站在全国人民、家人、战友和团队面前，接受美国总统颁发的这枚勋章——你永远都不会觉得自己配得上它，因为这几乎是不可能的——这确实是一份沉甸甸的责任，说到底也是一种负担。我的一位朋友、同为荣誉勋章获得者的凯尔·卡彭特常说，这是一种“美丽的负担”，我在某种程度上同意他的说法，但说到底，这也是一种荣幸。能继续服务国家、服务人民、服务 fellow 获奖者，服务全球各地代表美国执行任务的现役军人，这是一种荣幸。他们为了我们能坐在这里做这期节目、进行这场沉重的对话，付出了很多。当你想到他们所做的一切，那些看似无足轻重的日常对话，其实都显得不那么重要了。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 另一个重要的周年纪念是阿富汗战争。今年8月，这场打了20年的美国最长战争就将结束五周年，时间过得真快。国内对这场战争的审视从未停止。我想知道你们对此有何看法。既然你们都曾在这片战场服役，你如何看待那些在这场冲突中牺牲的人？人们对这场战争的讨论充满了各种激烈的观点。但对你而言，当你想起那场战争时，你如何理解美国的这段经历？
威尔·斯温森： 作为军人，我们被国家派往海外，为保卫国家而战，就是这么简单。我们尽了本分，光荣地完成了任务，哪怕我们为此失去了一些战友。我们之所以付出生命，是因为我们相信任务的意义，而归根结底，作为军人，我们的职责就是尽最大努力服役，当国家召唤我们时。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 这个周年纪念日对你有什么意义吗？听到人们讨论这场战争会感到痛苦吗？你希望人们更多地谈论这场战争吗？还是希望人们更多地谈论像你们这样的参战经历？
威尔·斯温森： 我们参与的战争是我们历史的一部分，我们的海外服役经历也是我们历史的一部分。如果我们不讲述这些故事，我们的国家就不知道该如何持续进步。我们是一个不完美的国家，一直在努力改进，而我们的历史就是我们展望未来、思考如何做得更好的一面镜子。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 你曾告诉我的同事大卫·马丁，退役时你感到困惑，对那段时期和服役经历感到迷茫。但你现在依然希望人们今天能报名参军吗？你当时感到困惑，后来是如何克服这种情绪，重新相信这项使命的？
威尔·斯温森： 关于服役本身，并没有什么困惑。我们再次明白，军人的职责就是接近并消灭敌人，这就是我们的工作。困惑来自国家层面，即我们到底想要实现什么客观目标。这是一个政治问题，应由我们的政治家来负责——他们肩负着神圣的责任，确保国家的发展方向、优先事项以及我们选择发动的战争，都值得军人付出牺牲，都符合国家前进的目标，并且能让我们作为一个国家在全球树立良好的榜样。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 你如何看待围绕美国最长战争的讨论？这会让你痛苦吗？我们应该更多地讨论它吗？还是说现在讨论的氛围过于激烈，充满争议？
马特·威廉姆斯： 不，我认为我们必须谈论它，我们必须从中吸取教训。你可以热爱它、憎恨它、同意它、反对它，这都没问题，这是你的权利，这正是我们为之奋斗的原因——你可以有不同意见，可以喜欢或讨厌，这些都不重要。我的想法略有不同：我并不为此感到悲伤。我清楚自己在那里做了什么，亲眼目睹了人们在那里的所作所为。我的经历让我作为丈夫、父亲和一个男人得到了成长，这些都极其重要。战场的熔炉能教会你很多在其他地方永远学不到的东西，比如如何应对压力、如何向前看、如何成为团队的一员。所有这些都至关重要。这场战争、它的结局、作战过程以及我们达成或未达成的目标，都值得辩论和讨论，这很重要，也很健康。我认为我们需要经历这些过程，需要讨论我们哪里可能出错了，哪里做对了，或者我们本可以如何做得更好，这样我们就不会重蹈覆辙。如果我们不能作为一个国家学习和成长，那么这场战争确实就毫无意义。但我认为我们比这更好，我相信我们会抓住这些机会展开讨论和对话，确保我的儿子以及未来所有人的子女，不必像我们一样经历这些。我们可以设定更明确的目标，更恰当地完成任务，这样人们就不会再对自己的服役经历感到困惑。但需要明确的是，我清楚自己为何服役，清楚自己做了什么，清楚我们作为一个团队、一个特种部队行动小组以及整个特种部队共同体共同取得的成就，我为此感到无比自豪。我为自己在阿富汗的服役经历感到骄傲。我现在有两个年幼的儿子，我们已经开始谈论这些事情，正如你之前提到的，尤其是关于9·11事件，以及为什么服务如此重要。我很幸运，大部分部署任务都是在他们出生前完成的，但我们现在会讨论这些，因为我认为这很重要，对整个国家也同样重要。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 说得好。威尔，你曾说过，现在有责任留给那些被留下的人。你这话是什么意思？
威尔·斯温森： 归根结底，如果我们具体回到阿富汗冲突，那么选择自己想要成为什么样的国家的责任在于阿富汗人民。我认为，我们的服役、我们的牺牲，以及我们与阿富汗伙伴在这个国家所做的一切，都表明他们有自己的道路可以选择，我们向他们展示了可能的未来。有许许多多阿富汗人渴望实现同样的愿景，但最终决定权在他们手中，他们需要决定自己的国家要成为什么样，自己的未来是什么样。但归根结底，我们作为美国军人、外交人员、非政府组织成员以及参与这场长达20多年冲突的所有人，向他们展示了一条更美好的前进道路。不仅是向他们，也是向世界展示了美国的决心，即帮助他人实现更美好的生活前景，让他们通过我们的服务和牺牲，看到美国最美好的一面。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 说得好。在节目结束前，我们即将迎来美国建国250周年。我知道我不能直接问你们是否乐观——两位荣誉勋章获得者肯定会说他们是乐观的。但具体是什么让你们感到乐观？如今这个国家有时会让人感到黑暗，当下有太多负面情绪。是什么让你对未来抱有希望？
威尔·斯温森： 归根结底，因为我们身处华盛顿特区，一切都围绕着政治，但我们必须记住，政治并不是全部。美国人的生活仍在继续：孩子们出生、上学，人们实现目标、成就梦想。这个国家很棒，这与政治无关，也不只是媒体上的新闻片段。归根结底，我们作为一个国家继续前进，始终不完美，始终在不断演进，始终在努力建立一个更完美的联邦。这才是需要铭记的重要之事，这是我们可以追求的理想。在历史上的任何时期、任何地点，都没有哪个国家能达到我们今天的高度。我们需要为此感到自豪，并且牢记这才是我们应该专注的方向，我们可以成为更好的自己。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 我们可以成为的样子，以及其中的承诺。是什么让你感到乐观？
马特·威廉姆斯： 我同意威尔的看法。我认为，记住我们作为一个国家的本质，抓住机会庆祝这一点，思考我们克服的种种挑战，以及我们已经走了多远，这一点至关重要。如果你深入思考从建国到今天我们经历的种种考验和磨难，就会发现我们已经取得了巨大的进步。我们的国家是全球超级大国，经济发展良好，这些都很棒。抛开政治不谈，只谈谈我们生活的社区、身边的人、你的家人，以及你拥有的自由——选择上哪所学校、住在哪里、从事什么职业或不从事什么职业的自由，有太多值得积极看待的东西。我认为，在接下来的一年里庆祝美国建国250周年是一件了不起的事。有太多很棒的地方可以去参观，国家广场将充满美国风情，我们将庆祝自我，我认为我们应该花时间这么做，这非常重要。在全国各地，我们在德克萨斯州阿灵顿的国家荣誉勋章博物馆一直致力于打造一座非凡的灯塔，不仅要讲述我们的故事、勋章本身代表的意义，还要讲述所有相关的历史。我鼓励大家去那里参观，庆祝我们的历史。这太重要了，有太多美好的事情可以去做、去体验，不要只是把它当作周末的消遣。要思考你为什么这么做，当你置身人群中，享受乐趣，带着家人去了解我们的国家、庆祝我们的国家时，真正地去庆祝它。为你所拥有的一切心怀感恩，为别人为你创造的机会心怀感恩。如果你能做到这些，我看不出你怎么会对未来不乐观。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 非常感谢。谢谢二位，也感谢你们的服役。
马特·威廉姆斯： 谢谢。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 我们稍后回来。
Transcript: Lt. Col. William Swenson (Ret.) and Command Sergeant Major Matthew Williams (Ret.) on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan,” May 24, 2026
2026-05-24T10:30:00-0400 / CBS News
The following is the transcript of the interview with retired Lt. Col. William Swenson and retired Command Sergeant Major Matthew Williams (Ret.) that aired on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” on May 24, 2026.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: We’re joined today by two Medal of Honor recipients, retired Command Sergeant Major Matt Williams and retired Lieutenant Colonel William Swenson. Both were awarded their medals for valor in battle during their service in Afghanistan, and it’s good to have you both here.
COMMAND SERGEANT MAJOR MATT WILLIAMS (RET.): Thank you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It’s not often that we have guests with your background, with your experience, and we want to tap into some of your thoughts here, because it is pretty extraordinary when you read the description for the Medal of Honor. And I want to do that. It’s the highest award for military valor in action, the Congressional Medal of Honor Society describes it as representing the values of bravery, courage, sacrifice, integrity, a deep love of country and a desire to always do what is right. What does it mean to you?
LT. COLONEL WILLIAM SWENSON (RET.): One of the things about military service is there’s a universal component to it. Everyone who signs up to serve our country believes in the ultimate ideals of what we represent. As citizens, we have a free country. Being part of the military service is one of the ways to serve our country. In that service, you sign up potentially at great risk to yourself. In our cases, I think that we did nothing more than do our jobs. We were given the right training, we were given the right opportunities, but ultimately we were told that we needed to do something on that day specifically, and what set us apart is actions we did take, but ultimately there were actions that any other service member would have taken on behalf of that service.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You really believe that? Anyone else.
WILL SWENSON: I do.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Will, what do you think? What does this honor mean to you?
MATT WILLIAMS: Yeah, I think Will’s exactly right. It’s- it means the medal itself embodies service and sacrifice and patriotism and serving something greater than yourself, you know. And I think, you know, I think we both can say we joined the military at a time of great need. The country was in need of young men and women to serve and go fight, and in a war that was on two fronts in Iraq and Afghanistan, you know. And I chose my, my path specifically within special operations. And I was surrounded by phenomenal human beings every time we stepped out of the wire, you know, I was presented with- with an opportunity that day to serve the men to the left and right of me, and that’s what I chose to do. And I’ll echo what Will said. I don’t think that, I firmly believe that everyone I’ve served with would do the same thing if given that opportunity. And you know, the fascinating thing about the medal itself is, is our story was captured and- and that’s why we sit here today with this award around our necks, a lot- just like the 3500 other Americans that have been awarded the medal over our history. But I’ll tell you with all honesty, I believe there’s much more valor and heroism- heroism that has happened on the battlefield every single day. There’s stories that just don’t get captured. They don’t get told, and that’s what this medal actually represents. It’s not me and Will here. It’s, it’s not who, who else wears the medal today. It’s those that have never had their story told, or- or the folks that received the medal, you know, a relative picked it up at the White House in a shadow box because they never made it home. I think that’s what this medal represents, and that’s why it’s so important.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Matt, you mentioned you served with people outside the wire. What do you mean by that? Are you talking–
MATT WILLIAMS: Every time that you you know you leave your fire base, you know you whether you get into vehicles or you get into helicopters or whatever you’re going to do, you know you’re going to go out there and you’re going to face the enemy and and you have to be at peace with that. You have to understand that your training has has prepared you to be effective on the battlefield. And you have to have the trust in the men and the women to the left and right of you, that they’re going to be there when, when they- when you need them to be there, and you’ll be there for them at the same time. And that’s how, that’s how you’re the most effective in combat operations. But, you know, I think it’s more important than that, I think that’s how you’re most effective as a country. If you’re willing to serve those to the left and right, if you serve your community, you know, be a part of something bigger than yourself, then, you know, it kind of puts everything else aside. We don’t really have that much to fight about anymore, if you really think about it way.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, both of you, when we looked at your backgrounds, you were both headed towards the trajectory of some kind of service before you joined the military, whether it was the State Department or, I think, law enforcement, right? Do you think you’re just sort of hard wired for that?
MATT WILLIAMS: You know, I’ll jump in. I think, you know, in a way, I think I was. You know, I like to kind of joke, I was the little boy that never actually grew up. You know, I always wanted to be a police officer or join the FBI or- or wherever my path took me. But those, those ideals, those values, were, you know, they were- they were learned over time. It’s how I was raised. You know, my father always taught me the value of hard work and integrity and being a person of, you know, trust, you know. And I think that was very important. And I understood at a young age that if you have the opportunity and the ability, you need to do something bigger than yourself, you need to look outside yourself. And to me, that was service. And, you know, and law enforcement was my form of doing that. It’s- that- that was my goal. And of course, that trajectory changed quite drastically, and I found the military. And you know, it’s something that I would still challenge everybody today, to consider the military as an option, because it’s so important, and the lessons you can learn, the things you can do, really set yourself up for great success after your service. And I think that’s something that, you know I would, I would ask most young men and women in America to consider doing.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And you were headed towards a career, possibly as a diplomat, as I understand it. And then 9/11 happened.
WILL SWENSON: 9/11 was a transformational event for our generation. I think that many of us who had set our path towards service, we saw that there was a moment that was being presented to us that required us to stand up and do what we felt was right. Whether it was military service or otherwise, many of us did hear that call. Every generation has a transformational moment. It doesn’t require a 9/11 to understand the importance of serving one’s country. And at that time, I had people that also heard a call and they heard a call to go serve in under-privileged schools or at the National Park Service or any number of other places. But specifically for me, national defense was where we needed to have our people. It’s where I felt I was best placed, and ultimately it became the right choice.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It’s interesting because when we were talking about the conversation with you two, it came up that this year will mark 25 years since 9/11 and there are now 25-year-old adults walking around this country who do not have those events as part of their living memory, right? They were so small. How do you explain to that generation, what was so galvanizing for you, that made you change the entire trajectory of your life and sign up for sacrifice?
WILL SWENSON: And what I’d say to that is, and there they are, serving without that galvanizing moment. Every generation stands up to serve. Every generation hears the call. There are different–
MARGARET BRENNAN: Less than one percent of the population, now active duty. 6% have past service. It’s a smaller and smaller part of the population, but you aren’t worried about that?
WILL SWENSON: I think that the people who are being asked to serve in a national security regimen, that’s a smaller portion of our country, just because of the nature of warfare. We require a smaller military. We require different capabilities and different skills. There’s still service, though. Again, service is not specifically military. It’s universal. You can do anything to serve this nation, to serve your community and be a good citizen. But back to your point, our military service members do represent a fraction of the population and do carry a heavy burden. And this generation of 25-year-olds and younger, they didn’t need the events of 9/11, that’s part of their history. They didn’t need that moment for them to go into service. They understood well that there was something worth fighting on behalf in this country, in what our values are, and that’s why they are where they are.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you think, though, that there is that unifying factor right now behind service? I mean, the country feels very fractured at this moment in time, at least on this program, we have a lot of conversations about it. What do you think?
MATT WILLIAMS: You know, I think that there is the feeling, you know, I think that feeling is true and real, but I don’t think it’s as big as it seems, actually, and maybe that’s just my hope. I hope that it’s not. I hope that people can realize that we have so much to fight for and so much to be grateful for in this country. You know, I think we have a- we have a hard time. We dwell on our past quite a bit, and it’s rocky. You know, we’ve had a rocky trajectory to get to where we are today, but we’re still the greatest nation in the world, and we’re still the freest country in the world. And those are things to be celebrated, but they’re more importantly, the things to be protected and to Will’s point- and I, I just retired from military in October, and my final job was- was a command sergeant major at one of the Special Forces Qualification Course battalions. And I got to see these young men that had raised their right hand, just like I did, you know, 20 years ago, to come and join the special operations community because it was the right thing to do. And they didn’t need the extra call to service that we had- that we needed, you know, to get us across that line. They did it because it’s the right thing to do. And I think- I think, and I believe that that’s really still true and inherent in the youth of America. You know, I hope- I hope we can do a little bit better on some of the rhetoric and the way that we communicate with each other. That could obviously be a lot better. It would just be better for the country. But we have a lot to celebrate, and we have a lot to be thankful for, and we have a lot to serve for, you know. And I ask- I ask everybody, when I get the chance, you know, look, I’m not asking you to go strap on the uniform and carry a rifle into combat with the enemy, I just ask that you be a citizen worth that service, you know. And that’s my challenge to people, is- is be worth the service and sacrifice that this young, 25-year-old is willing to go- go do on your behalf. I mean, if you think about that every day, we think that these kids are over there because they believe in it, and they believe that they’re doing it for you personally. You know, I think that would kind of change our mindset a little bit and offer a little bit of relief from the rhetoric that we see so much of today.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s a really profound way of thinking about Memorial Day, frankly–
MATT WILLIAMS: –Yeah, absolutely.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Which will be coming up on- this month. Do you think of particular people you served with on that day that our country marks, Memorial Day?
WILL SWENSON: Clearly those we serve with, it is a personal experience. We know people who have sacrificed at the greatest measure for this country, and one of the things that I always have to do is remember those who have given the ultimate sacrifice on behalf of these ideals. And what I like to do is remember not just them, not just their stories, but their families, and ensure that they always resonate in history, because their story is my story, their story will continue as long as we as a nation, remember that we have heroes that are willing to serve on our behalf, and their sacrifice and their loss needs to be remembered, so days like Memorial Day are so deeply important for us to continue as a country forward understanding what people are willing to give on behalf of it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you have anyone particular in mind on Memorial Day?
MATT WILLIAMS: You know it’s hard. You know there’s people that come up almost every day, you know, and some are lost in combat, and some have just been lost along the way, unfortunately, you know. And somebody I think about quite often is my teammate, fellow Medal of Honor recipient, Ron Shurer who, who lived through combat. He lived to serve the Secret Service. He lived to serve on the counter assault team for the president, and he was taken from us due to cancer, you know, that’s linked back to exposures in his time in Afghanistan and Iraq, the things that he done- had done and been exposed to. And he’s somebody that- he’s constantly on my mind because he was- he meant a lot to me, and he was a mentor to me in more ways than one, not only as a new guy, as a Special Forces operator, but then, as a Medal of Honor recipient, I got to live through him before I received my medal as well. And he’s, he’s constantly on my mind. But Memorial Day is a time to really take a pause and think about those, those folks that we’ve lost, and not only in combat directly, but we’ve lost since then as well. And to, you know, unfortunately, due to some- some other circumstances and decisions that people have made, which are all too tragic as well. And so I think that’s really how I frame Memorial Day and think about it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Will, when President Obama presented you the Medal of Honor, he said, quote, you ‘remind us that our country can be at its best, a nation of citizens who look out for one another, who meet our obligations to one another, not just when it’s easy, but also when it’s hard.’ Is it a burden to carry expectations like that with you when you enter private life?
WILL SWENSON: I think we have to remember that the crucible of war is unfair, and it does bring out both the worst of us and the best of us. In moments of great risk to our own lives, we do things that are inexplicable, and we see things that are almost at the level of miracles. People are coming together as a team to do things that ultimately flies in the face of good decision making, but ultimately, what they’re doing is fighting on behalf of each other and on behalf of their country. And when I recognize that I received individual accolades from the president, one of the things that we have to remember specifically as Medal of Honor recipients is that we’re the ambassadors to other people’s stories. We’re ambassadors to those whose stories were not told. We’re ambassadors to those who were with us on the battlefield, Johnson, Johnson, Kenefick, Layton and Westbrook, and they didn’t come home. Their stories are part of our story. We wear this medal as a representation of service, not as a representation of ourselves, and that is a weight that we as recipients of this award have to remember is our responsibility is to continue telling the stories, not just of us, but of everyone we served with and everyone who will serve.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That feels heavy. It feels like you will always be part of public service after going through something like this.
WILL SWENSON: I would say as Medal of Honor recipients, we are a very fair representation of America. We’re a snapshot of this country. We come from towns, cities, all walks of life, different political views, and ultimately, we are a very democratic representation of the values of this country. But as recipients of this award, we have to take those backgrounds, some humble, some not, and with that, continue to try to lead lives that are emblematic of what this award represents.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And I understand both of you are continuing to try to help and to serve, particularly with veterans. Matt, President Trump said of you that you demonstrated unyielding service, unbreakable resolve and untiring devotion. Do you think of those words as a, as a burden or as an assignment for the rest of your life? How do you think of it?
MATT WILLIAMS: You know, I think it’s probably a little of both, but, but I’ll kind of frame it a bit differently, you know, to me, it’s a privilege, because not everybody gets the opportunity to put this medal on, like I mentioned earlier. Well over 50% of the medals that have been awarded have been awarded posthumously. So to be able to stand there in front of the nation, in front of your family, in front of your peers, in front of your team, and have the President of the United States of America, present an award to you that you can never feel like you actually ever earned, because it’s just impossible. You know, is extremely heavy, and it is a burden at the end of the day. And you know, one of our- my friends and fellow recipients, you know, Kyle Carpenter says it all the time, he calls it a beautiful burden, and I agree with him to a point, but I also, I also think it’s a privilege, at the end of the day. It’s a privilege to be able to continue to serve, serve our country, serve our people, serve our fellow recipients, and serve the fellow service members that are out there across the globe today, you know, operating on behalf of the United States of America, on behalf of our opportunity to sit here and do this show and have this conversation, and talk about things that are heavy and burdensome in a way that doesn’t seem to matter as much when you think about what they’re out there doing to make sure we can still do this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Another key anniversary is Afghanistan. There has been so much scrutiny in this country over the war that ended five years ago this August. Hard to believe. America’s longest war. I wonder how that sits with you. Since you both served on that battlefield, what do you think of those who sacrificed in that conflict? It’s spoken about in so many different, heated ways. But for you, when you think of that war, how do you make sense of America’s experience?
WILL SWENSON: As military service members, we were asked by our country to go serve overseas on behalf of the defense of the nation. It’s as simple as that. We did our jobs. We did our jobs honorably, and we did our jobs to the measure that we left some of ours behind. There was loss of life because we believed in the mission, and ultimately, as service members, that’s what we do. We serve to the best of our ability. When our nation calls us to serve.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Does that anniversary mean anything to you? Is it- is it difficult to hear people talk about the war? Do you want people to talk more about the war? Do you want them to talk more about people who had your experience?
WILL SWENSON: Our war is part of our history. Our service overseas is part of our history. If we don’t tell these stories, we as a nation don’t know how to always improve. We are an imperfect nation that’s always trying to improve, and it’s through our history as a lens that we look forward on how to do better next time.
MARGARET BRENNAN: When you told my colleague David Martin here that when you left the army, the word you chose was you felt confused. You felt confused about that time and that service. But do you still want people to sign up to serve today? You felt confused. How did you overcome that and come back to believe in this mission?
WILL SWENSON: There’s no confusion in service. We understand again our role as military service members is to close with and destroy the enemy. That’s our job. The confusion comes as a nation as to what objectively we want to achieve. That’s a political question, and it’s up to our politicians who have the very hallowed responsibility to ensure that the navigation of this nation and our priorities and the wars that we choose are worth the sacrifice of our service members and are necessary to the objectives of moving us forward as a nation and to be the global example of what we do as a country.
MARGARET BRENNAN: How do you feel about conversation about America’s longest war? I mean, is it painful? Is it something we should do more of, or is it just so heated now that it’s fraught?
MATT WILLIAMS: No, you know, I think we have to talk about it, you know, we have to learn from it. You know, you can, you can love it or hate it or agree with or disagree with it, and that’s all fine, and that’s your prerogative. And that’s- that’s part of living in a free country, you know? That’s why we did what we did, so that you can disagree or like or hate or whatever it doesn’t matter. You know, I think about it a little bit differently. You know, I’m not- I’m not sad about it. I know what I did over there. I know what I saw people do over there. My experiences have made me grow as a- as a husband, a father, as a man, and I think all those things are extremely important. You know, the crucible of combat, teaches you so much about yourself that you can never learn anywhere else, you know, how to deal with stress and how to move on and how to be a member of a team. All those things are important now, the war and how it ended and how maybe it took place, or the objectives that we achieved or didn’t achieve are up for debate and up for discussion. And I think that’s important. It’s healthy. You know, I think we need to go through those things, and we need to have conversations about where we, you know, maybe we went wrong, or maybe we went right, or what we could have done differently so that- that we don’t repeat, you know, the same situation over again. If we’re not learning and growing as a country, then, yeah, then it’s definitely not worth it. But I think that we’re better than that, and I think we’re going to take these opportunities and- and have discussion and dialogue around them, and ensure that, you know my son and, you know, everybody’s sons and daughters in the future don’t have to deal with something in a way that that we did, that we can have a little bit more finite objectives and finish our mission more appropriately, so that people don’t have to be confused about their service. Now, to be very clear, I am not- I know what I served for. I know what I did. I know what we accomplished together as a team and as an ODA and as a Special Forces community writ large. And I’m very proud of that. I’m very proud of my service to Afghanistan. I have two young boys now, and it’s something that we started to talk about, you know, with 9/11 in particular, as you mentioned earlier, and why service is important, and why I was, you know, I was fortunate. I deployed most of the time before they were born. But we now talk about those things because I think it’s important, and I think that’s important for the country as well.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well said. I know you, Will, have said there’s a responsibility now to the people left behind. What did you mean by that?
WILL SWENSON: The responsibility, ultimately, if we’re specifically going back to the Afghan conflict, is on the Afghan people to choose what they want to be as a country. I think that our service, our sacrifice, what we did in that country, along with our Afghan partners, was an indicator that they have their own path to choose, and we showed them what it could be. And there were many, many Afghans who wanted to achieve the same vision, but it’s up to them. They need to decide what they want to be as a country. They want to decide what their future is. But ultimately, what we showed them as U.S. service members, as foreign service officers, as NGOs, everybody who participated in those 20 plus years of conflict, we gave them a better pathway forward. And not just them. We showed the world what the American resolve is to help achieve objectively for other people, what could be a better pathway forward for them and their lives so they got to see the best of America through our service and sacrifice.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well said. And before I let you go, we are coming up on this 250th anniversary of the American experience. I know I can’t ask you a question like, are you optimistic? There’s no way that two Medal of Honor winners could say they’re not optimistic. So what specifically makes you optimistic? Because this country, at times, can feel dark, these days, there’s a lot of darkness. What makes you feel optimistic?
WILL SWENSON: Well, ultimately, because we’re in Washington, D.C., and everything revolves around politics, we have to remember that politics aren’t everything. American lives continue on. Children are born, children go to school. Lives are achieved. Dreams are achieved. This country is a great place. It’s not politics. It’s not just what’s the news bites coming off of media. Ultimately, we continue forward as a country, continually imperfect, continually evolving forward, always trying to achieve a more perfect union. That’s what’s important to remember, what we can achieve aspirationally. No other place in history, time or on this planet have ever gotten to where we are today. We need to be proud of that, and we need to remember that is what we stay focused on, what we can be.
MARGARET BRENNAN: What we can be, and the promise of it. What makes you optimistic?
MATT WILLIAMS: You know, I agree with Will. I think, you know, it’s- it’s so important to remember who we are as a country, and take an opportunity to celebrate that, and think about all the- the challenges that we’ve overcome, how far we’ve actually come. You know, I think if you- if you frame it that way, you think very deeply about our trials and tribulations from beginning to today, we’ve made tremendous strides. Our country is, you know, we’re a super- global superpower. Our economy is doing well. All those things are great. And- and take politics aside out of this whole conversation. Just talk about our communities, that- that we live in, and the people that you surround yourself with, and your families, and the opportunity to be free and, you know, choose what school you go to, and where you want to live and do what you want to do, and what career path you go down or don’t if you want to, you know, I mean, there’s so much to be positive about. And I think the opportunity to celebrate America’s 250th birthday, you know, over the course of this next year is- is amazing. There’s so many great places to visit. You know, the National Mall is going to be full of Americana. And what we’re going to- celebrating ourselves, which I think we should take the time to do. I think it’s very important. You know, across the country, you know something we’re very passionate about at the National Medal of Honor Museum in Arlington, Texas, is- is a- is a phenomenal beacon that stands to- to talk about and house our, not only our story, the story of the Medal, and what the Medal represents itself. And I would challenge people to go there and celebrate our history as well. You know, it’s so important. There’s so many great things to go do and great things to visit and don’t just take part in it, because it’s something to do on a weekend, right? Think about why you’re doing it, and when you’re there in the crowds and you’re- you’re enjoying yourself, and you’re taking your family to go talk about our country and celebrate our country, actually celebrate it. Be grateful for what you’ve got and the opportunity that was provided for you. If you do that, I don’t see how you can’t be optimistic about our future.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, thank you. Thank you both, and thank you for your service.
MATT WILLIAMS: Thank you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ll be back.
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